«12. . .2,5062,5072,5082,5092,5102,5112,512. . .2,6512,652»
Hey, 
Uan aa Boa, did you mean to suppress Cans post? You liked it, so I just wanted to check.
Damn, sorry 
Canaltia. Honestly, what bunch of clowns entrusted me with admin powers?
Well this is awkward.
I feel I need to take issue with this. What we now know about abuse in the Catholic Church (and other organisations too) surely we have to reject the idea that tradition and longevity in themselves offer protection. I'd venture that when religions abuse their practitioners it's because of a lack of market forces, where there's a power imbalance that means leaving, resisting or reporting doesn't seem like an option for the victim. I can delete my meditation app, cancel my subscription and stop going to the classes without a backwards glance.
And I like the fact that my chosen form of meditation is held at a distance from Buddhism. I've been to a few classes led by someone wearing orange robes and sitting in front of a garlanded statue (though I confess I didn't dig deeply into their credentials). It didn't add anything, because to me wearing orange robes and garlanding statues is as ridiculous as wearing black and white vestments and handing out morsels of bread and wine, and because it makes me nervous in case I'm going to be expected to believe things. Similarly I can't be bothered with whale music, tinkly bells and visualising putting all my troubles in a box and closing the lid. So I like the fact that there's a marketplace containing many things that don't work for me but also something stripped down and minimal that does (and I do appreciate how odd it is for me to come on here arguing for the free market!)
I also think meditation can be evaluated by science in at least the same sense as other treatments for depression and anxiety i.e. using recognised questionnaires and scales before and after. Certainly people telling you how they feel is only one step from the purely subjective, but the same issue applies to guided self-help, counselling, CBT and other recognised therapies.
What I'm looking for isn't available from the clergy and it isn't really a medical issue, although what I get from meditation sits well with what I got from counselling and CBT - be honest about how things are, and lean into your pain and make peace with it. Obviously where other people find other paths are helpful to them I completely respect that, and I would never suggest that what works for me would work for everyone.
Shalotte, Siornor, Frieden-und Freudenland, Calenmor, and 7 othersJutsa, Atsvea, Lord Dominator, Canaltia, McClandia Doge 2, Far away enough, and Texas Jaguarundi
This is the political suppression I was referring to. Truly a sign of things to come smh.
Einswenn, Siornor, Jutsa, Atsvea, and 7 othersLord Dominator, Lura, McClandia Doge 2, Zerphen, Garbelia, Kase, and Far away enough
Congratulations Uan! :)
I agree with this completely. The basic issue with the mindfulness industry right now is that it's essentially laissez-faire capitalism in terms of who can sell what and how they can market it. As noted in the example I gave, and as you cover above, even the most widespread vendors of mindfulness and meditation have pretty much no checks on them, even when they violate informed consent. (Incidentally, part of how they get away with this is by shiftily toeing the line between spiritual discipline and secular medicine, strategically claiming to be either one or the other depending on their audience at a given moment).
Here, obviously, I am going to disagree, and it's this attitude about religion that I'm trying to counter in my paper because I believe people seeking spiritual guidance will be on a lot safer ground if they look to a priest or something for advice instead of a secular guru (not to mention they'll be participating in a religious community instead of giving their money to an entrepreneur).
As I understand it, the widely prevalent "spiritual but not religious" view (i.e. the position that a personal relationship with faith is beneficial and even necessary but that religious institutions are inevitably corrupt) comes from a Western humanist fear of indoctrination--we tend to be mistrustful of anyone we perceive as telling us what to do and especially anyone telling us what to believe. This pervasive culturally-bound phobia is obviously apparent in dystopian books like 1984 and The Circle. Personally, I see myself as a quintessential American in that indoctrination is probably my biggest fear. So why defend traditional religion?
First, the defense is made on the premise that virtually all beliefs, from the most mundane to the most transcendent, are context-dependent and culturally-bound. Everything we think we know exists thanks to a complex web of signification embedded in our language and culture. This means that if we think our thoughts are ours alone, we're wrong--they are in part ours, but we're only able to think them in the context of everything around us. This is plain in the business of marketing--the whole sham is based on crafting narratives and symbolic associations to draw customers in while leaving them with the misconception that their consumer choices are theirs alone, not influenced by outside factors. So the idea that one can have an individual relationship with anything sacred is, in my view, patently wrong. On the contrary, the only way to have a meaningful relationship with spirituality is to consciously engage in the symbolic complex that it (and we) arise in. The strategic obscuring of the language of Buddhism from secular meditative practices renders them esoteric to the consumer. By contrast, when you participate in a religious tradition you gradually become fluent in the ideas and practices which constitute it and thus are able to be an active participant in the religious conversation, speaking semi-metaphorically.
P.S. Canaltia, I read and enjoyed your post very much. I won't respond to anything in it directly for lack of time, but I particularly appreciated the problems you raised in regards to meditation being a mystical cure-all and the obvious Orientalist tinge of such notions. I was also tickled by your comment that it's usually put forward as one of those "habits of successful people."
Rhodevus, Calenmor, Jutsa, Atsvea, and 6 othersLord Dominator, Uan aa Boa, Canaltia, McClandia Doge 2, Far away enough, and Texas Jaguarundi
"Now we see the violence inherent to the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"
Rhodevus, Jutsa, Mount Seymour, Atsvea, and 7 othersLord Dominator, Uan aa Boa, Canaltia, McClandia Doge 2, Garbelia, Difinbelk, and Kase
So, first things first, your criticisms are definitely well-taken, and I'm definitely not trying to ignore the potential for abuse of various awful kinds in traditional religion. However, those forms of abuse are beyond the scope of what I'm arguing currently, and honestly are probably beyond the scope of most people's interest (EDIT: massive typo here. I mean to say that "the scope of my argument is beyond most people's interest). The specific issue I'm raising is what I would argue is a form of spiritual abuse in which market teachers claim to be offering a means for people to integrate spirituality into their lives in an accessible way while doing anything but that (continued below).
I find your reflections perfectly understandable, and this gets at what I discussed in my response to FAE earlier. Your reaction to Buddhist meditation makes plain sense--this is a religious tradition imported from a culture completely foreign to yours. It would be a miracle if the practices, much less the language, that you were being exposed to felt natural to you. It should feel ridiculous. But most of us now realize that that which is foreign only feels strange because it's unfamiliar; we know that our perception of it is influenced by our own cultural context and that from the foreign perspective it's our tradition that makes no sense! That's what I mean when I talk about fluency in a religious culture--it takes time to cultivate and it doesn't come naturally.
Marketplace spirituality, because we only commit to it at our convenience, requires no such fluency. The big sell is that you can get something out of my mindfulness app if you spend just five minutes on it once a week--at a certain point, we have to ask whether that's a spiritual lifestyle or just someone trying to swindle you out of a few bucks on the app store. In my view, by eliminating the tradition from the practice, you lost the heart of the thing. In Buddhism, for example, one of the three jewels is the sangha, the religious community. Traditional religion is centered around engagement with profound questions of meaning while face to face with others. I'm personally highly skeptical of the relatively new notion that spirituality is about an unmediated experience with pure being; if religion is working right it should help us to cope with worries about death and loss and foster a sense of purpose and direction in our lives, and to me it's hard to imagine doing that effectively in an isolated context.
Now, this obviously doesn't apply to anyone who meditates for reasons outside of religion. As has been pointed out, there are benefits to physical and mental health to be gained from meditation. For anyone here who falls into that category, my only advice would be to be mindful of the concerns Canaltia brings up around ensuring the legitimacy of any given regimen--make sure you know where it comes from, what it's supposed to do for you, and what evidence there is for those and other possible side effects, preferably getting your information directly from a licensed professional.
Again, you're definitely right, and of course the medical benefits of meditation are empirically proven. This is likewise something that falls outside the scope of my claim as I'm examining the specific case of meditation of spiritual wellbeing.
Surely, the very definition of "sacred" is itself an individual and personal thing? One's outlook is of course influenced by one's upbringing, one's community, and one's cultural background, but the entire concept of sacredness is one of deep personal attachment and reverence. There can be no objective "sacred" trait - only that which is ascribed or accepted by an individual. Whether that ascription is shared with a group or held unique to oneself, the experience is dependent upon the acceptance of the experiencing party that something possesses a value.
The annals of history and religion are full of sacred places, objects, and concepts that have been defiled or ignored for no more reason than that the individual(s) doing the defiling or ignoring does not view that thing as sacred. The beliefs of millions of people did not stop somebody without those beliefs from dynamiting the Buddahs of Bamiyan, or sacking the Temple of Jerusalem, or digging up the funerary objects and bodies of indigenous people. Sacred means nothing without the individual, and shared spirituality is not functionally different than a group of people cheering for the same sports team, or voting for the same political cause, or being fans of a particular performer. A person can choose to derive additional fulfillment from the act of sharing the experience, fetishizing the concept of the collective, but doing so does not impact the experience of others who do not share that belief themselves. Any individual may drop in or out at any time, and the values, beliefs, and practices are as transient as the people themselves.
Spiritual or sacred values definitely *can* be applied to groups, or group-think, or face-to-face interaction, but the act of treating "the group" as sacred or necessary for spirituality is itself just individuals ascribing value to a particular thing.
Einswenn, Rhodevus, Siornor, Calenmor, and 7 othersJutsa, Mount Seymour, Atsvea, Lord Dominator, Uan aa Boa, McClandia Doge 2, and Texas Jaguarundi
Once again, this definition of sacredness is a modern innovation tied in pretty troubling ways to the history of primitivism and Orientalism. Historically, a thing of any kind was sacred ONLY insofar as it was sanctified by traditional doctrine. Sacredness was defined by community recognition, not individual feeling. During the last two centuries, the ideological conundrums presented by religious pluralism intersected with romanticist strains of humanism to turn this idea on its head. In the 20th (and late 19th) centuries, the general consensus was that all the religions we see in the world must be cultural manifestations of one universal, sacred truth which formed the core of all religions. Significantly, "the sacred" was conceptualized as something transcendent that could only be experienced by the individual through immediate experience. This view was basically universal in the study of religions for almost 100 years, but it's considered completely antiquated by most scholars today because 1) "the sacred" isn't something that can be empirically studied or even verified and 2) the theory that all religions are fundamentally comparable required some egregious twisting of non-Western religions to subject them to a Christian norm. The idea that sacredness is a matter of personal experience held on in popular society. This isn't to say that that idea is wrong, only that it's a belief unique to our present culture and we can't get very far into a serious study of religion as long as we're committed to it.
I think that your point about Jerusalem and Bamiyan only further clarifies that sacredness is culturally constructed. What is sacred to one culture will not be sacred to another.
As for the sports fans and political activists, I would argue form a sociological standpoint that cheering for a sports team alone is a vastly different from cheering for a sports team with a thousand other people. If you look online for pictures of videos of Argentines celebrating their recent world cup win, you will readily understand it as a phenomenon of cultural identity at work. It's not as if each person in Argentina happened, by coincidence, to look at all the soccer teams in the World Cup and decide that they were going to root for Argentina. It's a celebratory ritual of participation in group identity--a celebration which by definition is exclusive to the members of the group.
For me, it's not a fear of indoctrination. Indoctrination is everywhere, and critical thinking is rare. No, I'd rather say that organised belief is pointless specifically because of its focus on tradition. When you view advice in the Bible, for example, through certain lenses, a lot of it makes sense. Pork is one of the most dangerous meats to eat when it is not stored or cooked properly, so the bible gives advice against eating pork, because when it was written, it's likely that a lot of people got sick from eating pork.
Religion has had its place in history. It no longer serves its original purpose of explaining unknown phenomena, and yet people cling to it as if it gives their lives any purpose. It doesn't. I'm a staunch nihilist. Life has no inherent meaning. I just don't necessarily think that's a negative thing. You're allowed to come up with your own meaning.
I would like to wish you Good Luck in advance 
McClandia Doge 2. :)
Max a.k.a. 
Texas Jaguarundi
Texas' Ambassador to Forest
Jutsa, Atsvea, Lord Dominator, McClandia Doge 2, and 2 othersGarbelia, and Difinbelk
Guess who just got their internet back... :^)
Seems there was an issue with the pole* outside. Particularly the one that the electricians seemed to give the least attention to. Go figure it was our connection specifically. (They fixed the rest of the neighborhood earlier in the week I guess ;p) Them folks who fix those scary electrical death contraptions are heros, I tell ya.
Looks like I'll be getting a nice break from government. Don't get me wrong, it's good fun... and I fully intend to stick around and be a pain in the butt to you all. But it'll be nice not being held accountable for ignoring the events I otherwise am apathetic toward if not outright boycotting. :^) (nor have diplomatic crises due to my World Assembly shenanigans...)
On that note: Off to apply for another ambassadorship xD Also off to cook some black lentils I accidentally bought... hey just because I've been waiting 12* days for this beautiful and wonderful thing that is integral to my life as I know it to come back doesn't mean I can't put everything off for incredibly mild hunger pangs.
Addendum: I do not particularly recommend eating warmed black lentils from a can without anything else. (But if it were a choice between that or any form of jarred kale, I would easily smash the jarred kale, incinerate it, and throw its ashes in the ocean while living off of solely black lentils for a year.)
Siornor, Lord Dominator, Uan aa Boa, McClandia Doge 2, and 4 othersZerphen, Garbelia, Kase, and Cookies
Well it didn't take long to get my stuff working, so here is the Greenness Index - March 2023!
Ransium’s “Greenness Index”
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Greenness
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Ransium -
Mozworld -
Reannia -
Ownzone ▲
Nimros ▼
Bilsa ▼
Top 30 'Green Thumb' nations | Greenness |
1.2156718342403627 | |
0.9164580179138323 | |
0.8841359366213152 | |
0.7916571853741496 | |
0.7897867234693877 | |
0.6838674414965987 | |
0.6701969390022676 | |
0.6301800481292518 | |
0.612805224319728 | |
0.5868582702947845 | |
0.5857682941043084 | |
0.5683714000566894 | |
0.5443718883219955 | |
0.5240217014172336 | |
0.52257069138322 | |
0.5105255085600907 | |
0.4924457121315193 | |
0.48414161689342405 | |
0.4811922961451247 | |
0.4580327204648526 | |
0.45482473134920637 | |
0.4537092881519275 | |
0.433757718707483 | |
0.4330757854308391 | |
0.4300831154761905 | |
0.42844771479591837 | |
0.42691659920634917 | |
0.42548864087301586 | |
0.42341322823129246 | |
0.4106327024376418 |
Nations below #30 | Greenness |
0.4081860883219955 | |
0.40545011275510207 | |
0.4027778389455783 | |
0.40275612363945584 | |
0.39793624648526077 | |
0.3941249711451247 | |
0.3898072702947846 | |
0.3871113488662132 | |
0.3835364490362812 | |
0.3749718163265306 | |
0.37115794812925174 | |
0.3702608076530612 | |
0.3650627560090703 | |
0.36309588100907036 | |
0.3540202045918367 | |
0.3530845095804988 | |
0.3478032843537415 | |
0.3349531425736961 | |
0.3347258403061224 | |
0.32982654489795915 | |
0.32553029308390025 | |
0.32311307142857143 | |
0.32175299257369616 | |
0.3195156623015873 | |
0.3182761071995465 | |
0.31325074852607715 | |
0.3121035347505669 | |
0.3099109369614512 | |
0.3095145355442177 | |
0.30561913951247166 | |
0.3046345103741496 | |
0.2989335593537415 | |
0.29825004971655333 | |
0.2981042048185941 | |
0.2953350520975057 | |
0.2948709580498866 | |
0.29201667879818594 | |
0.28787104325396823 | |
0.28583609886621314 | |
0.2832986123015873 | |
0.2832336949546486 | |
0.2825200676870748 | |
0.2791339595804989 | |
0.2776909277777778 | |
0.27497498594104314 | |
0.2719127634920635 | |
0.27155923571428575 | |
0.26985824030612243 | |
0.26624165141723355 | |
0.2639497486394558 | |
0.26386376530612243 | |
0.263486287414966 | |
0.2616507140022676 | |
0.2608622488662131 | |
0.2599029964852607 | |
0.25546920958049885 | |
0.25497780600907033 | |
0.2547651890022676 | |
0.253272793707483 | |
0.2525864425736961 | |
0.2511099907029478 | |
0.24996497074829938 | |
0.24905519189342404 | |
0.24831687352607712 | |
0.24831362896825399 | |
0.24650477947845806 | |
0.23845404648526083 | |
0.2380896747165533 | |
0.23728680958049883 | |
0.23511467125850338 | |
0.2308905134920635 | |
0.2301230097505669 | |
0.22998766955782313 | |
0.2298806585600907 | |
0.22878719189342406 | |
0.22843922063492067 | |
0.22714219308390024 | |
0.2264042711451247 | |
0.2235872240362812 | |
0.22245832721088438 | |
0.22134967602040814 | |
0.22061546213151928 | |
0.21644161077097507 | |
0.21616833015873016 | |
0.21510731904761904 | |
0.21426753424036282 | |
0.21319205958049886 | |
0.21246333951247168 | |
0.21212141434240364 | |
0.2111386319727891 | |
0.2109839750566893 | |
0.20558537505668933 | |
0.20511279495464854 | |
0.2036910835600907 | |
0.2031656747165533 | |
0.20275113611111112 | |
0.19996388741496599 | |
0.19789220856009068 | |
0.19698032284580502 | |
0.1969113223356009 | |
0.19676862046485263 | |
0.1929624985260771 | |
0.19295176638321998 | |
0.191744372845805 | |
0.1915762623015873 | |
0.19063119149659866 | |
0.19001817862811793 | |
0.1898683270975057 | |
0.18897876876417236 | |
0.18713000124716556 | |
0.18581107006802722 | |
0.18422642386621318 | |
0.18176359257369615 | |
0.18072084574829933 | |
0.1797215253968254 | |
0.17855537505668936 | |
0.17817091173469388 | |
0.17706631213151927 | |
0.17661045958049887 | |
0.17573708900226756 | |
0.17535772074829933 | |
0.17519264444444443 | |
0.17376455634920637 | |
0.17256801666666666 | |
0.1722212981292517 | |
0.17161455085034014 | |
0.1706345893424036 | |
0.16934488066893427 | |
0.1691927985260771 | |
0.1682777905328798 | |
0.16802366570294786 | |
0.16775424886621315 | |
0.16707075498866214 | |
0.16672676808390025 | |
0.16638020022675737 | |
0.16411172346938777 | |
0.16251057505668934 | |
0.16246200884353745 | |
0.16206575685941044 | |
0.1603559509070295 | |
0.16023768696145124 | |
0.1600725985260771 | |
0.159745916723356 | |
0.15877515459183672 | |
0.15713772760770975 | |
0.15608726156462582 | |
0.15515283185941045 | |
0.15406845799319727 | |
0.15365440527210886 | |
0.15154439886621315 | |
0.1508814092403628 | |
0.15072081332199544 | |
0.1503506454648526 | |
0.15009817959183677 | |
0.14851622267573697 | |
0.1470480485260771 | |
0.14528507267573698 | |
0.14509988492063491 | |
0.14417831927437644 | |
0.14285832386621317 | |
0.14277396598639455 | |
0.1424418409863946 | |
0.14180496672335602 | |
0.14179828656462587 | |
0.1394296117346939 | |
0.13941903622448976 | |
0.13846977346938777 | |
0.13778990873015873 | |
0.1376519224489796 | |
0.13738467505668936 | |
0.1366040560090703 | |
0.1362941897959184 | |
0.1343140670634921 | |
0.13316016519274376 | |
0.13284744053287983 | |
0.13215969693877555 | |
0.13187341672335598 | |
0.13180062590702946 | |
0.13151916071428574 | |
0.13002674308390022 | |
0.12915383015873014 | |
0.12887878304988662 | |
0.12777473458049887 | |
0.12746538911564625 | |
0.12669747704081633 | |
0.12574435328798186 | |
0.125230293707483 | |
0.12398459546485259 | |
0.1235394556122449 | |
0.12091407301587302 | |
0.12087481519274376 | |
0.11904256638321996 | |
0.11836987823129251 | |
0.11523672346938778 | |
0.11393537029478458 | |
0.1138512509070295 | |
0.11266563117913833 | |
0.11225750816326531 | |
0.11198114172335599 | |
0.1108939142857143 | |
0.11031693214285715 | |
0.10873040102040818 | |
0.10819169189342404 | |
0.1073216993197279 | |
0.10694099682539683 | |
0.106783718707483 | |
0.10671175340136055 | |
0.10611018849206348 | |
0.10496063832199548 | |
0.10487997998866212 | |
0.10453977063492063 | |
0.10430563815192745 | |
0.10266623339002266 | |
0.10254330975056691 | |
0.10243890379818593 | |
0.10210331927437644 | |
0.10120443185941044 | |
0.10034897998866213 | |
0.10010811196145125 | |
0.10001335022675736 | |
0.09767039257369615 | |
0.09749543356009072 | |
0.09705751570294784 | |
0.09676337386621316 | |
0.09624566162131519 | |
0.09572312148526077 | |
0.09560484217687075 | |
0.09521244013605441 | |
0.09486524257369615 | |
0.09469552148526078 | |
0.09383486995464853 | |
0.0917981378117914 | |
0.09167632108843538 | |
0.09109727403628118 | |
0.09095587998866211 | |
0.09071552522675737 | |
0.09070971162131519 | |
0.09037830527210883 | |
0.09027075408163267 | |
0.09012118656462585 | |
0.08985453475056689 | |
0.08967562709750568 | |
0.08887850719954649 | |
0.08876067267573698 | |
0.08875704852607709 | |
0.08814624404761905 | |
0.08756576927437641 | |
0.08752648775510205 | |
0.08740605680272108 | |
0.08655432261904762 | |
0.0864089093537415 | |
0.08587147959183675 | |
0.08571845209750566 | |
0.08511871638321995 | |
0.08504779625850341 | |
0.08488105243764171 | |
0.08487386315192745 | |
0.08469339523809524 | |
0.08458165090702947 | |
0.08434223594104308 | |
0.08426000323129253 | |
0.0840740231292517 | |
0.08391681156462585 | |
0.08342999013605443 | |
0.08318087857142857 | |
0.08317475022675738 | |
0.08286776451247164 | |
0.08264163424036282 | |
0.0824869798185941 | |
0.08182030634920635 | |
0.08180913543083901 | |
0.08138091513605443 | |
0.08130073815192744 | |
0.08099237942176872 | |
0.08080330442176871 | |
0.07931385736961451 | |
0.07835465566893424 | |
0.0775010702947846 | |
0.07704804529478458 | |
0.07659378775510206 | |
0.07595695736961453 | |
0.0751166843537415 | |
0.07463810124716552 | |
0.07402730600907029 | |
0.07318976037414966 | |
0.07278742074829932 | |
0.07240142879818595 | |
0.07228965873015875 | |
0.06982128027210885 | |
0.06901220816326531 | |
0.06828095170068028 | |
0.06790590753968255 | |
0.0676582711451247 | |
0.06744649070294785 | |
0.06733114376417233 |
Bottom 20 'Brown Thumb' nations | Greenness |
0.06682741649659865 | |
0.06605765685941044 | |
0.06482598792517007 | |
0.06463165090702949 | |
0.05756180992063492 | |
0.05389114625850341 | |
0.053627956009070304 | |
0.05188610124716553 | |
0.04056471672335601 | |
0.038208654988662126 | |
0.030447271825396836 | |
0.020556454081632657 | |
0.015289476190476183 | |
0.013480056802721088 | |
0.005790659240362811 | |
0.004710312811791384 | |
-0.0028463058956916102 | |
-0.07592808605442175 | |
-0.2628686221088435 | |
-0.34930693605442176 |
Forest Average Compared To World Average | Greenness |
0.196486164 | |
Nationstates Average | 0.09222557149 |
Using data from 25/3/23
.
Since it was last published in October 2021, the top 4 have remained identical, however 
Lord Dominator has knocked 
Candlewhisper Archive off the crown (is crown the right word?) of least green nation in Forest.
I'm hoping to be able to get this going on a regular basis again, and have several other projects on the backburner for this term, like the return of all previous statistics-based pages, a discord bot for live calculations and a few more indices, including a CO2 emissions calculator, which would even out the playing field for smaller nations.
Those who go to church live longer than those who don’t. By how much? A lot, such a significant amount that I can’t agree even as an atheist that religion serves no beneficial purpose even if those who ascribe to it do it for other reasons.
Now, its not the religion obviously that provides this magical life extending elixir but instead the community which often saves people from the crushing loneliness of a nihilistic lifestyle.
If Atheists ever want their message to propagate and to live long enough to see it then they need to form communities. There are already universalist churches that theoretically could function as atheist communities. But far too often atheists are convinced that grouping together in some way will undermine their principles.
Siornor, Jutsa, Atsvea, Lord Dominator, and 3 othersUan aa Boa, Zerphen, and Difinbelk
Nihilism isn't a lifestyle. It's just a belief about the nature of life in the universe. My belief that there's no purpose behind life existing is separate from being atheist (or, indeed, mostly anti-theist). My belief that there's no purpose does not inform my day to day decisions. It doesn't inform my long term decisions. It doesn't keep me from working, it doesn't keep me from making friends, it doesn't keep me from creative endeavours.
People in tight knit communities might live longer, but that says nothing of the value they're getting out of the extra years they're living. I know a lot of people in cultural and religious communities who hate the people around them, but if they leave those communities behind, their families will leave them behind. So they're obliged to keep in contact with people who annoy them, who they hate, who are arguably not good or moral people, simply because they would otherwise lose a massive chunk of their support network.
I don't know what your personal beliefs are, whether you're in this debate because it's an intellectual exercise, or whether you actually do have faith, but it genuinely makes me sad to see someone misunderstand something like a simple worldview. Nihilism as a belief is a spectrum like anything else. Mine is pretty simple.
I do not think life exists for any purpose. It does not have any inherent meaning. Our existence is as valuable to the universe as the existence of a rock. But personally, I have purpose in my life. I have found meaning in my life. My existence is valuable to the people around me.
The thing I think is fundamentally misunderstood in your message is the part where you say "if atheists want their message to propagate". Speaking for myself, I'm not trying to propagate anything. Because in my day to day life, outside of this type of debate and conversation, atheism doesn't come up. It isn't a defining factor of my existence. In my experience, people who are religious tend to let that take the place of a lot of valuable character and personality building. Not always, but a lot of the time. And there's people on the other side, as well. Atheists who let their atheism replace any real, honest personality traits. I tend to stay away from any extremes like that.
Einswenn, Rhodevus, Siornor, Jutsa, and 8 othersAtsvea, Lord Dominator, Uan aa Boa, Novian Republics, McClandia Doge 2, Zerphen, Garbelia, and Difinbelk
Huzzah! Thank you for doing a new one of these. I occasionally run some calculations for myself on Excel spreadsheets, but don't have the macros/api experience to actually run regional numbers except by hand-filling them. Very excited to have a new one. I'm pleased to see that I've continued climbing the ranks, but wow does it get harder and harder to do so! I gained 12 positions from March to October of 2021 with a score increase of 0.3, but another increase of 0.9 from October 2021 until now only netted 8 more spots. Near the top, an increase of that much might not even net a single position :-D
I just ran the numbers for all five Greenness Index dispatches that are still available (Sadly Montmorencia's posts from 2018 and before were deleted), and am impressed to say that 32 nations have been in the top 50 of every one of them from September 2020 until now. Pretty great retention rate! I graphed out the scores of those nations over time (copy and paste the link below to see it), and it became extremely evident why it's named after Ransium – look at that domination!
https://i.imgur.com/yGzQz1B.png
Worldviews are absolutely intrinsically tied to lifestyles. Every decision we make is bound to our beliefs and values. I think the disconnect here is that while you may not be a "practicing nihilist,' so to speak, the lifestyle you're describing is thoroughly informed by an individualism which clearly stems from your nihilism.
This is arguably one of the most widespread worldview-lifestyles in the modern world--that in which, empirically witnessing no grand moral narrative, we conclude that purpose and meaning are the purview of the individual. It's a perfectly good stance to take, but sociologists have pointed out that this pervasive individualism leaves us with a "cultural blind spot." In short, this analysis suggests that we don't recognize the beliefs of the culture we're in as cultural values, leading us to 1) assume that the beliefs our culture holds are or should be universal and 2) overlook the ways that our own views are culturally-informed.
I see this in your report when you say "in my day to day life, outside of this type of debate and conversation, atheism doesn't come up. It isn't a defining factor of my existence." Most likely, you are an atheist because you live in a culture that derives metaphysical belief primarily from the findings of empirical science (which do not currently support theism) and that encourages individualism (which is in many cases challenged by theisms). This is the cultural heritage of romanticism, humanism, rationalism, and empiricism which was exported from Europe to the globe during the colonial era. Your approach to living is unthinkable outside of this framework.
At the end of the quoted post, you make an implicit critique of religious people and atheists alike whom you perceive as approaching "extremities," suggesting, again, an individualist humanist perspective that values developed and agentive personhood over and against groupthink. Thus, while you may not "fear" indoctrination per se, your assertions certainly seem to suggest that you think one should be their own person and not overly attached to derived beliefs and faiths which you see as dehumanizing. (I maintain that the comparison to 1984 is apt)
The problematic arises insofar as you (and frankly all of us) perceive your own beliefs and values as being your own whilst perceiving beliefs and lifestyles which contradict yours as misguided. This is of course the actual root of polarization and the very process by which we dehumanize others, especially foreign cultures, en masse. To a devout Christian, your beliefs might reflect taking empiricism and individualism to the extreme. Indeed, in their view, your "personality traits" perhaps get in the way of your devotion to the people around you and to God. Perhaps for them the difficulties they face in their community are an integral part of developing their character and getting value out of their life. They are working with an entirely different conception of what a proper personhood looks like. And their worldview-lifestyle can contradict yours in all these ways while still being internally consistent.
This is not to say who is right and who is wrong, only that--as I'm sure you (and hopefully most of us) will agree--the worldview each of us holds is one among many. We must remain conscientious of this fact if we have any hope of living in harmony with each other. Pluralism is the antithesis of polarization.
Jutsa, Atsvea, Lord Dominator, The Cypher Nine, and 4 othersMcClandia Doge 2, Zerphen, Garbelia, and Difinbelk
I blame myself entirely, having allows our lime-green paint industry to dump toxic run-off into CWA's oceans. The verdant hues created may be aesthetically pleasing, but fooled World Assembly inspectors into thinking there was something alive in our coastal waters, as opposed to the healthy black-brown sludge colour of Lord Dominator's enviably toxic seas.
It also didn't help that the usual bribes paid to the environmental inspectors (to ensure last place) dissolved en route, thanks to atmospheric acidity.
However, we would like to remind Forest that CWA remains the premier destination for lack of social responsibility / low low taxes, and also for distressingly addictive and sugary fizzy beverages. It's The Real Thing! The only soda that stays fizzy all the way through your genitourinary tract, for that jolly bubbly urinal experience.
For some reason, this continues to be my favorite thing about this region. Glad to see it return :)
Siornor, Jutsa, Atsvea, Ruinenlust, and 6 othersLord Dominator, Uan aa Boa, McClandia Doge 2, Garbelia, Difinbelk, and Ecologist Hegemony
I would like to observe that not only did I surpass CWA, my negative greeness is actually a larger negative than the scores of my fellow negative players combined I do believe.
Your mistake was considering any other factor than making life worse, obviously :p
I was wondering why I was mentioned in this dispatch about Greenness Index:
Ransium’s “Greenness Index”
.
Greenness
.
Ransium -
Mozworld -
Reannia -
Ownzone ▲
Nimros ▼
Bilsa ▼
Top 30 'Green Thumb' nations | Greenness |
1.2156718342403627 | |
0.9164580179138323 | |
0.8841359366213152 | |
0.7916571853741496 | |
0.7897867234693877 | |
0.6838674414965987 | |
0.6701969390022676 | |
0.6301800481292518 | |
0.612805224319728 | |
0.5868582702947845 | |
0.5857682941043084 | |
0.5683714000566894 | |
0.5443718883219955 | |
0.5240217014172336 | |
0.52257069138322 | |
0.5105255085600907 | |
0.4924457121315193 | |
0.48414161689342405 | |
0.4811922961451247 | |
0.4580327204648526 | |
0.45482473134920637 | |
0.4537092881519275 | |
0.433757718707483 | |
0.4330757854308391 | |
0.4300831154761905 | |
0.42844771479591837 | |
0.42691659920634917 | |
0.42548864087301586 | |
0.42341322823129246 | |
0.4106327024376418 |
Nations below #30 | Greenness |
0.4081860883219955 | |
0.40545011275510207 | |
0.4027778389455783 | |
0.40275612363945584 | |
0.39793624648526077 | |
0.3941249711451247 | |
0.3898072702947846 | |
0.3871113488662132 | |
0.3835364490362812 | |
0.3749718163265306 | |
0.37115794812925174 | |
0.3702608076530612 | |
0.3650627560090703 | |
0.36309588100907036 | |
0.3540202045918367 | |
0.3530845095804988 | |
0.3478032843537415 | |
0.3349531425736961 | |
0.3347258403061224 | |
0.32982654489795915 | |
0.32553029308390025 | |
0.32311307142857143 | |
0.32175299257369616 | |
0.3195156623015873 | |
0.3182761071995465 | |
0.31325074852607715 | |
0.3121035347505669 | |
0.3099109369614512 | |
0.3095145355442177 | |
0.30561913951247166 | |
0.3046345103741496 | |
0.2989335593537415 | |
0.29825004971655333 | |
0.2981042048185941 | |
0.2953350520975057 | |
0.2948709580498866 | |
0.29201667879818594 | |
0.28787104325396823 | |
0.28583609886621314 | |
0.2832986123015873 | |
0.2832336949546486 | |
0.2825200676870748 | |
0.2791339595804989 | |
0.2776909277777778 | |
0.27497498594104314 | |
0.2719127634920635 | |
0.27155923571428575 | |
0.26985824030612243 | |
0.26624165141723355 | |
0.2639497486394558 | |
0.26386376530612243 | |
0.263486287414966 | |
0.2616507140022676 | |
0.2608622488662131 | |
0.2599029964852607 | |
0.25546920958049885 | |
0.25497780600907033 | |
0.2547651890022676 | |
0.253272793707483 | |
0.2525864425736961 | |
0.2511099907029478 | |
0.24996497074829938 | |
0.24905519189342404 | |
0.24831687352607712 | |
0.24831362896825399 | |
0.24650477947845806 | |
0.23845404648526083 | |
0.2380896747165533 | |
0.23728680958049883 | |
0.23511467125850338 | |
0.2308905134920635 | |
0.2301230097505669 | |
0.22998766955782313 | |
0.2298806585600907 | |
0.22878719189342406 | |
0.22843922063492067 | |
0.22714219308390024 | |
0.2264042711451247 | |
0.2235872240362812 | |
0.22245832721088438 | |
0.22134967602040814 | |
0.22061546213151928 | |
0.21644161077097507 | |
0.21616833015873016 | |
0.21510731904761904 | |
0.21426753424036282 | |
0.21319205958049886 | |
0.21246333951247168 | |
0.21212141434240364 | |
0.2111386319727891 | |
0.2109839750566893 | |
0.20558537505668933 | |
0.20511279495464854 | |
0.2036910835600907 | |
0.2031656747165533 | |
0.20275113611111112 | |
0.19996388741496599 | |
0.19789220856009068 | |
0.19698032284580502 | |
0.1969113223356009 | |
0.19676862046485263 | |
0.1929624985260771 | |
0.19295176638321998 | |
0.191744372845805 | |
0.1915762623015873 | |
0.19063119149659866 | |
0.19001817862811793 | |
0.1898683270975057 | |
0.18897876876417236 | |
0.18713000124716556 | |
0.18581107006802722 | |
0.18422642386621318 | |
0.18176359257369615 | |
0.18072084574829933 | |
0.1797215253968254 | |
0.17855537505668936 | |
0.17817091173469388 | |
0.17706631213151927 | |
0.17661045958049887 | |
0.17573708900226756 | |
0.17535772074829933 | |
0.17519264444444443 | |
0.17376455634920637 | |
0.17256801666666666 | |
0.1722212981292517 | |
0.17161455085034014 | |
0.1706345893424036 | |
0.16934488066893427 | |
0.1691927985260771 | |
0.1682777905328798 | |
0.16802366570294786 | |
0.16775424886621315 | |
0.16707075498866214 | |
0.16672676808390025 | |
0.16638020022675737 | |
0.16411172346938777 | |
0.16251057505668934 | |
0.16246200884353745 | |
0.16206575685941044 | |
0.1603559509070295 | |
0.16023768696145124 | |
0.1600725985260771 | |
0.159745916723356 | |
0.15877515459183672 | |
0.15713772760770975 | |
0.15608726156462582 | |
0.15515283185941045 | |
0.15406845799319727 | |
0.15365440527210886 | |
0.15154439886621315 | |
0.1508814092403628 | |
0.15072081332199544 | |
0.1503506454648526 | |
0.15009817959183677 | |
0.14851622267573697 | |
0.1470480485260771 | |
0.14528507267573698 | |
0.14509988492063491 | |
0.14417831927437644 | |
0.14285832386621317 | |
0.14277396598639455 | |
0.1424418409863946 | |
0.14180496672335602 | |
0.14179828656462587 | |
0.1394296117346939 | |
0.13941903622448976 | |
0.13846977346938777 | |
0.13778990873015873 | |
0.1376519224489796 | |
0.13738467505668936 | |
0.1366040560090703 | |
0.1362941897959184 | |
0.1343140670634921 | |
0.13316016519274376 | |
0.13284744053287983 | |
0.13215969693877555 | |
0.13187341672335598 | |
0.13180062590702946 | |
0.13151916071428574 | |
0.13002674308390022 | |
0.12915383015873014 | |
0.12887878304988662 | |
0.12777473458049887 | |
0.12746538911564625 | |
0.12669747704081633 | |
0.12574435328798186 | |
0.125230293707483 | |
0.12398459546485259 | |
0.1235394556122449 | |
0.12091407301587302 | |
0.12087481519274376 | |
0.11904256638321996 | |
0.11836987823129251 | |
0.11523672346938778 | |
0.11393537029478458 | |
0.1138512509070295 | |
0.11266563117913833 | |
0.11225750816326531 | |
0.11198114172335599 | |
0.1108939142857143 | |
0.11031693214285715 | |
0.10873040102040818 | |
0.10819169189342404 | |
0.1073216993197279 | |
0.10694099682539683 | |
0.106783718707483 | |
0.10671175340136055 | |
0.10611018849206348 | |
0.10496063832199548 | |
0.10487997998866212 | |
0.10453977063492063 | |
0.10430563815192745 | |
0.10266623339002266 | |
0.10254330975056691 | |
0.10243890379818593 | |
0.10210331927437644 | |
0.10120443185941044 | |
0.10034897998866213 | |
0.10010811196145125 | |
0.10001335022675736 | |
0.09767039257369615 | |
0.09749543356009072 | |
0.09705751570294784 | |
0.09676337386621316 | |
0.09624566162131519 | |
0.09572312148526077 | |
0.09560484217687075 | |
0.09521244013605441 | |
0.09486524257369615 | |
0.09469552148526078 | |
0.09383486995464853 | |
0.0917981378117914 | |
0.09167632108843538 | |
0.09109727403628118 | |
0.09095587998866211 | |
0.09071552522675737 | |
0.09070971162131519 | |
0.09037830527210883 | |
0.09027075408163267 | |
0.09012118656462585 | |
0.08985453475056689 | |
0.08967562709750568 | |
0.08887850719954649 | |
0.08876067267573698 | |
0.08875704852607709 | |
0.08814624404761905 | |
0.08756576927437641 | |
0.08752648775510205 | |
0.08740605680272108 | |
0.08655432261904762 | |
0.0864089093537415 | |
0.08587147959183675 | |
0.08571845209750566 | |
0.08511871638321995 | |
0.08504779625850341 | |
0.08488105243764171 | |
0.08487386315192745 | |
0.08469339523809524 | |
0.08458165090702947 | |
0.08434223594104308 | |
0.08426000323129253 | |
0.0840740231292517 | |
0.08391681156462585 | |
0.08342999013605443 | |
0.08318087857142857 | |
0.08317475022675738 | |
0.08286776451247164 | |
0.08264163424036282 | |
0.0824869798185941 | |
0.08182030634920635 | |
0.08180913543083901 | |
0.08138091513605443 | |
0.08130073815192744 | |
0.08099237942176872 | |
0.08080330442176871 | |
0.07931385736961451 | |
0.07835465566893424 | |
0.0775010702947846 | |
0.07704804529478458 | |
0.07659378775510206 | |
0.07595695736961453 | |
0.0751166843537415 | |
0.07463810124716552 | |
0.07402730600907029 | |
0.07318976037414966 | |
0.07278742074829932 | |
0.07240142879818595 | |
0.07228965873015875 | |
0.06982128027210885 | |
0.06901220816326531 | |
0.06828095170068028 | |
0.06790590753968255 | |
0.0676582711451247 | |
0.06744649070294785 | |
0.06733114376417233 |
Bottom 20 'Brown Thumb' nations | Greenness |
0.06682741649659865 | |
0.06605765685941044 | |
0.06482598792517007 | |
0.06463165090702949 | |
0.05756180992063492 | |
0.05389114625850341 | |
0.053627956009070304 | |
0.05188610124716553 | |
0.04056471672335601 | |
0.038208654988662126 | |
0.030447271825396836 | |
0.020556454081632657 | |
0.015289476190476183 | |
0.013480056802721088 | |
0.005790659240362811 | |
0.004710312811791384 | |
-0.0028463058956916102 | |
-0.07592808605442175 | |
-0.2628686221088435 | |
-0.34930693605442176 |
Forest Average Compared To World Average | Greenness |
0.196486164 | |
Nationstates Average | 0.09222557149 |
Using data from 25/3/23
.
Then I found out I'm #289 in the Greenness list.
I don't know how that happened since I'm a newbie here and my nation is still quite new but thank you for mentioning me. :)
Mount Seymour, Atsvea, Lord Dominator, Uan aa Boa, and 4 othersMcClandia Doge 2, Garbelia, Difinbelk, and Kuraiva
Hello Forestians !
I worship The Maker of the Universe through the beauty of Creation. I love, and feel connected to, rocks and all plants and all creatures great and small.
Siornor, Jutsa, Atsvea, Ruinenlust, and 2 othersLord Dominator, and Uan aa Boa
I can absolutely agree that there is no one worldview that is right. The majority of what you've said here is something I can agree with. The main thing I disagree with is the idea that I'm in any way an individualist. When I do talk about stuff like this, I tend to refer to my beliefs, because I know my own beliefs perfectly. I can't lay claim to anybody else's. But from my understanding of what most people would call individualism, I'm definitely not that.
You say I seem to "value developed and agentive personhood over and against groupthink", which I absolutely do. But I don't think that strictly makes me an individualist. I just think in an ideal world, religion wouldn't be an influential force at all, and certainly not the one it is these days. I'm a supporter of large government, I'm a supporter of community, and of a welfare society. I run Far Away Enough based on my real life morals - my country isn't a character I've created like some others who like to roleplay extremist states. I support large government. I support welfare and society.
What I do not support is capitalism, militarism, patriotism, or religion.
I'm a socialist, a pacifist, and an atheist. I can't say these don't inform my lifestyle at all, but none of these are lifestyles in themselves, which is what I was trying to say in what I said about "nihilistic lifestyle". It might inform parts of me, but it is not me, just as I am not just my brain, nor just my body, nor even just my mind. I am everything that is mine, and I think that's pretty inarguably true of everybody. I rail against people who have one part of their life that ends up becoming their personality, especially when it isn't something that is actually theirs. Religion is one of those things that I see people pour themselves into, and it becomes them. I think that's sad, and I don't think it makes me necessarily an individualist to want to see people become three dimensional versions of themselves.
Einswenn, Siornor, Jutsa, Atsvea, and 4 othersLord Dominator, Uan aa Boa, McClandia Doge 2, and Difinbelk
I disagree. The nihilist understands only too well that all perspectives, her own included, are a matter of culture. This recognition that all standards for assigning meaning and value are contingent, relative and local is the essential point of nihilism. To be honest it seems a pretty crude attempt at a "gotcha" to point out that this kind of nihilism emerges from a specific culture too. The nihilist doesn't need to maintain that her own view is absolute in the way she has realised others can't be.
I realise that many outspoken atheists, particularly of the Richard Dawkins variety, don't get this. I'm happy to view myself as a Christian atheist in the sense that I emerged from a churchgoing upbringing in a society that has a strong historical and cultural relationship with Christianity, meaning that my mindset is probably very different to that of someone who emerged as non-religious from a Hindu culture. I can agree with you that all ideas and all lives are inextricably bound up in culture, but at this point we have the opposite of an "in the beginning was the Word" conception of absolute truth and I feel that in arriving here you've essentially conceded the nihilist's argument. It's not so much a case of "empirically witnessing no grand moral narrative" as coming to realise that the idea of such a narrative makes no sense.
Siornor, Jutsa, Mount Seymour, Atsvea, and 4 othersLord Dominator, Garbelia, Ecologist Hegemony, and Far away enough
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