by Max Barry

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Especially given that nobody seems to have believed that to be the case? That implies communality, but at the same time, I think his point was that Vatican 2 is afwul and pope francis is kinda awful as a Christian leader. But i dont have a stance yet. so keep going

i know this is kinda an nsfw question but is having a feet fetish a sin?

The United Dutchies wrote:i know this is kinda an nsfw question but is having a feet fetish a sin?

laugh all you want, but i need to know

The United Dutchies wrote:Especially given that nobody seems to have believed that to be the case? That implies communality, but at the same time, I think his point was that Vatican 2 is afwul and pope francis is kinda awful as a Christian leader. But i dont have a stance yet. so keep going

No. If everyone, including Pius V, has interpreted Quo Primum differently than you do, then that raises a very serious red flag for your claim. After all, how could Pius V not even realize what he wrote and end up excommunicating himself for altering the missal? That's just silly, and it calls into question multiple dogmas regarding Church inerrancy.

I'm assuming you're more than one person since you seem to be referring to yourself in the third person. Not a big deal or anything but it's just a bit confusing.

Vatican II was an ecumenical council. Thus, it has divine protection and can not be considered "awful" by the faithful. I would also dispute the notion that Pope Francis is an awful Christian leader, but we'd also be pretty far off topic then.

Ottovanus wrote:No. If everyone, including Pius V, has interpreted Quo Primum differently than you do, then that raises a very serious red flag for your claim. After all, how could Pius V not even realize what he wrote and end up excommunicating himself for altering the missal? That's just silly, and it calls into question multiple dogmas regarding Church inerrancy.

I'm assuming you're more than one person since you seem to be referring to yourself in the third person. Not a big deal or anything but it's just a bit confusing.

Vatican II was an ecumenical council. Thus, it has divine protection and can not be considered "awful" by the faithful. I would also dispute the notion that Pope Francis is an awful Christian leader, but we'd also be pretty far off topic then.

lets switch to that topic
Canon Law 212.3 gives the laity permission and the responsibility to point out errors by our leaders to the faithful, as long as it is done with respect. I dont hate pope francis, we deffinitly could have worse, but at the same time, he is not a good pope, he has done some bad stuff. here is a list, because I dont want to be rude without putting out evidence.

Fired trusted servants who served under the previous popes and surrounded himself with assistants who want to legitimize same sex relations.
Promoted James Martin, a same sex advocate, to communications consultant to the Vatican's Secretariat for Communications. He also met with him privately for 30 minutes without any clarification and sent him an encouraging letter.
Appointed many Cardinals who have publicly made statements that are broadly interpreted as an attempt to move towards the legitimization of same sex relations and a host of other agendas that are foreign to the faith, and who will continue to vote for popes and agitate long after he is gone.
Trusted the now disgraced Cardinal McCarrick, to negotiate a deal with China which marginalized and isolated the faithful underground Catholic Church in China from the Vatican.
He has called synods, not to explore open questions, but to legitimize foregone conclusions, pushed by the German bishops, which are contrary to the teachings of preceding popes and the deposit of faith.
Introduced changes through ambiguities such as the famous footnote in AMORIS LÆTITIA, which has been interpreted by some bishops conferences as opening the the door for communion for divorced and remarried Catholics who had not received an annulment, which John Paul II clearly determined to be inadmissible.
Allowed the firing of all the professors at the John Paul II Pontifical Theological Institute for Marriage and Family, and replaced them with those who have an agenda that is almost 180 degrees in the other direction, including contraception. The new person in charge has a history of gay friendly incidents.
Has held papal audiences and has bestowed honours upon advocates of abortion, same sex marriage, couples living together before marriage, trans couples, without encouraging them to return to the truths of the Church, and with no sign to the faithful that these choices are inconsistent with the Catholic faith.
He characterized traditionally minded Catholics as rigid, impractical, stiff and unloving. He has leveled particular criticism against young traditionally minded Catholics.
Pope Francis said weird things on plane trips, such as
"Who am I to judge?" regarding his appointment of a Vatican Bank official who was reported as acting out sexually with other men
Condescending comments about large Catholic families, "Catholics shouldn't breed like rabbits"
The Vatican confirmed that Pope Francis was approving use of “the contraceptive or condom” in certain cases during an in flight press conference when discussing the Zika virus
Said he's not afraid of schism, which is particularly weird because the terrible Vatican deal with the Chinese government which delegitimized the faithful underground Church was justified to "prevent a schism"
Francis welcomed dialogue with those who don't agree with tenets of the Catholic faith but ignored or ridiculed those who believe and adhere to the Catholic faith in ways that differ from his ideas. He has pushed them out of his circle of influence.
Signed Abu Dhabi declaration that "God wills other religions" without clarifying the difference between God's active and passive will.
Francis espoused a tired old liberal interpretation of the story of the loaves and fishes which proposes that Jesus encouraged people to share what they had, rather than multiply the food.
Granted ongoing interviews to an atheist friend journalist who continues to quote the Pope in ways that are a scandal to the Church. These quotes include the denial of the Trinity, denial of the divinity of Jesus, and the denial that hell exists.
Francis changed the Catechism to say the death penalty was "inadmissible". But he provided it with the same conditions as previous popes (1. Increased awareness of the dignity of the person, 2. new understanding of penal sanctions, 3. more power to the state to protect the public from the offender). Francis condemned life imprisonment which runs counter to John Paul II's reasoning for avoiding the death penalty.
Questioned Israel's decision to build a wall which reduced the bombing of its citizens significantly, by stopping his entourage on the Palestinian side and putting his hand on the wall and praying as if to ask God to knock it down.
Got into climate change science in an encyclical without acknowledging in the same document, that it is being used as a tool to promote contraception and abortion on the 3rd world. We would have preferred he stick to general statements about caring for creation.
He spoke about neglect for old people as the greatest social ill, and said the Church has to find a new balance and not talk so much about abortion, gay marriage and contraception. We're wondering what Church he's been attending because we'd love to hear more pastors preaching to the flock about the problems with abortion, contraception and same sex activity.
Pope Francis blessed Amazonian 'Pachamama' idols, which represent the Incan fertility goddess. He recognized the controversial objects as Pachamama, attended an opening service where Amazonians prostrated themselves before the idols in the Vatican Gardens. When they were removed from a Church and thrown in the Tiber river by scandalized Catholics, he apologized to the Amazonian people and said the police retrieved them. There was no apology to scandalized Catholics around the world for allowing syncrenistic services and pagan idols into the heart of the Vatican. To put this in perspective, many martyrs have gone to their deaths for refusing to do the very thing that was done voluntarily in the presence of the Holy Father.
The Pope's final exportation of the Amazonian Synod was mostly good, but then told everyone to go read the synod document which had tons of issues.
He has given uneven treatment of erring liberal factions and traditionalist factions with preferential treatment and encouragement of liberals, which may fuel schism by traditionalists.
The forbiding of the Traditional Latin Mass was largely seen as a hostile move against conservatives rather than an attempt to unify the Church. If he wanted to unify the Church he could have stopped feeding liberal activism in the Church and the Vatican, instead of coming down hard on traditionalists who are reacting to what they see in the Vatican.
He has fed into the COVID 19 vaccine mandates by saying Catholics have a "moral obligation" to be vaccinated for the "common good". This is dispite the use of aborted babies in the development and/or testing of the vaccines, many side effects, 99.5% survival rate in the unvaccinated, natural immunity in those who have had it, and the resulting herd immunity. The Catechism of Catholic Church gives each Catholic freedom of conscience in medical procedures. The Church has previously expressly instructed the faithful to resist any medical vaccine that involves aborted fetuses.

The United Dutchies wrote:lets switch to that topic
Canon Law 212.3 gives the laity permission and the responsibility to point out errors by our leaders to the faithful, as long as it is done with respect. I dont hate pope francis, we deffinitly could have worse, but at the same time, he is not a good pope, he has done some bad stuff. here is a list, because I dont want to be rude without putting out evidence.

Fired trusted servants who served under the previous popes and surrounded himself with assistants who want to legitimize same sex relations.
Promoted James Martin, a same sex advocate, to communications consultant to the Vatican's Secretariat for Communications. He also met with him privately for 30 minutes without any clarification and sent him an encouraging letter.
Appointed many Cardinals who have publicly made statements that are broadly interpreted as an attempt to move towards the legitimization of same sex relations and a host of other agendas that are foreign to the faith, and who will continue to vote for popes and agitate long after he is gone.
Trusted the now disgraced Cardinal McCarrick, to negotiate a deal with China which marginalized and isolated the faithful underground Catholic Church in China from the Vatican.
He has called synods, not to explore open questions, but to legitimize foregone conclusions, pushed by the German bishops, which are contrary to the teachings of preceding popes and the deposit of faith.
Introduced changes through ambiguities such as the famous footnote in AMORIS LÆTITIA, which has been interpreted by some bishops conferences as opening the the door for communion for divorced and remarried Catholics who had not received an annulment, which John Paul II clearly determined to be inadmissible.
Allowed the firing of all the professors at the John Paul II Pontifical Theological Institute for Marriage and Family, and replaced them with those who have an agenda that is almost 180 degrees in the other direction, including contraception. The new person in charge has a history of gay friendly incidents.
Has held papal audiences and has bestowed honours upon advocates of abortion, same sex marriage, couples living together before marriage, trans couples, without encouraging them to return to the truths of the Church, and with no sign to the faithful that these choices are inconsistent with the Catholic faith.
He characterized traditionally minded Catholics as rigid, impractical, stiff and unloving. He has leveled particular criticism against young traditionally minded Catholics.
Pope Francis said weird things on plane trips, such as
"Who am I to judge?" regarding his appointment of a Vatican Bank official who was reported as acting out sexually with other men
Condescending comments about large Catholic families, "Catholics shouldn't breed like rabbits"
The Vatican confirmed that Pope Francis was approving use of “the contraceptive or condom” in certain cases during an in flight press conference when discussing the Zika virus
Said he's not afraid of schism, which is particularly weird because the terrible Vatican deal with the Chinese government which delegitimized the faithful underground Church was justified to "prevent a schism"
Francis welcomed dialogue with those who don't agree with tenets of the Catholic faith but ignored or ridiculed those who believe and adhere to the Catholic faith in ways that differ from his ideas. He has pushed them out of his circle of influence.
Signed Abu Dhabi declaration that "God wills other religions" without clarifying the difference between God's active and passive will.
Francis espoused a tired old liberal interpretation of the story of the loaves and fishes which proposes that Jesus encouraged people to share what they had, rather than multiply the food.
Granted ongoing interviews to an atheist friend journalist who continues to quote the Pope in ways that are a scandal to the Church. These quotes include the denial of the Trinity, denial of the divinity of Jesus, and the denial that hell exists.
Francis changed the Catechism to say the death penalty was "inadmissible". But he provided it with the same conditions as previous popes (1. Increased awareness of the dignity of the person, 2. new understanding of penal sanctions, 3. more power to the state to protect the public from the offender). Francis condemned life imprisonment which runs counter to John Paul II's reasoning for avoiding the death penalty.
Questioned Israel's decision to build a wall which reduced the bombing of its citizens significantly, by stopping his entourage on the Palestinian side and putting his hand on the wall and praying as if to ask God to knock it down.
Got into climate change science in an encyclical without acknowledging in the same document, that it is being used as a tool to promote contraception and abortion on the 3rd world. We would have preferred he stick to general statements about caring for creation.
He spoke about neglect for old people as the greatest social ill, and said the Church has to find a new balance and not talk so much about abortion, gay marriage and contraception. We're wondering what Church he's been attending because we'd love to hear more pastors preaching to the flock about the problems with abortion, contraception and same sex activity.
Pope Francis blessed Amazonian 'Pachamama' idols, which represent the Incan fertility goddess. He recognized the controversial objects as Pachamama, attended an opening service where Amazonians prostrated themselves before the idols in the Vatican Gardens. When they were removed from a Church and thrown in the Tiber river by scandalized Catholics, he apologized to the Amazonian people and said the police retrieved them. There was no apology to scandalized Catholics around the world for allowing syncrenistic services and pagan idols into the heart of the Vatican. To put this in perspective, many martyrs have gone to their deaths for refusing to do the very thing that was done voluntarily in the presence of the Holy Father.
The Pope's final exportation of the Amazonian Synod was mostly good, but then told everyone to go read the synod document which had tons of issues.
He has given uneven treatment of erring liberal factions and traditionalist factions with preferential treatment and encouragement of liberals, which may fuel schism by traditionalists.
The forbiding of the Traditional Latin Mass was largely seen as a hostile move against conservatives rather than an attempt to unify the Church. If he wanted to unify the Church he could have stopped feeding liberal activism in the Church and the Vatican, instead of coming down hard on traditionalists who are reacting to what they see in the Vatican.
He has fed into the COVID 19 vaccine mandates by saying Catholics have a "moral obligation" to be vaccinated for the "common good". This is dispite the use of aborted babies in the development and/or testing of the vaccines, many side effects, 99.5% survival rate in the unvaccinated, natural immunity in those who have had it, and the resulting herd immunity. The Catechism of Catholic Church gives each Catholic freedom of conscience in medical procedures. The Church has previously expressly instructed the faithful to resist any medical vaccine that involves aborted fetuses.

thats not a good pope. But not the worst pope we have ever had.

The United Dutchies wrote:i know this is kinda an nsfw question but is having a feet fetish a sin?

I dont think so, just as long as its your wife, and you arent lusting after other women
and no laughs man, alot of dudes have it

The United Dutchies wrote:lets switch to that topic
Canon Law 212.3 gives the laity permission and the responsibility to point out errors by our leaders to the faithful, as long as it is done with respect. I dont hate pope francis, we deffinitly could have worse, but at the same time, he is not a good pope, he has done some bad stuff. here is a list, because I dont want to be rude without putting out evidence.

Fired trusted servants who served under the previous popes and surrounded himself with assistants who want to legitimize same sex relations.
Promoted James Martin, a same sex advocate, to communications consultant to the Vatican's Secretariat for Communications. He also met with him privately for 30 minutes without any clarification and sent him an encouraging letter.
Appointed many Cardinals who have publicly made statements that are broadly interpreted as an attempt to move towards the legitimization of same sex relations and a host of other agendas that are foreign to the faith, and who will continue to vote for popes and agitate long after he is gone.
Trusted the now disgraced Cardinal McCarrick, to negotiate a deal with China which marginalized and isolated the faithful underground Catholic Church in China from the Vatican.
He has called synods, not to explore open questions, but to legitimize foregone conclusions, pushed by the German bishops, which are contrary to the teachings of preceding popes and the deposit of faith.
Introduced changes through ambiguities such as the famous footnote in AMORIS LÆTITIA, which has been interpreted by some bishops conferences as opening the the door for communion for divorced and remarried Catholics who had not received an annulment, which John Paul II clearly determined to be inadmissible.
Allowed the firing of all the professors at the John Paul II Pontifical Theological Institute for Marriage and Family, and replaced them with those who have an agenda that is almost 180 degrees in the other direction, including contraception. The new person in charge has a history of gay friendly incidents.
Has held papal audiences and has bestowed honours upon advocates of abortion, same sex marriage, couples living together before marriage, trans couples, without encouraging them to return to the truths of the Church, and with no sign to the faithful that these choices are inconsistent with the Catholic faith.
He characterized traditionally minded Catholics as rigid, impractical, stiff and unloving. He has leveled particular criticism against young traditionally minded Catholics.
Pope Francis said weird things on plane trips, such as
"Who am I to judge?" regarding his appointment of a Vatican Bank official who was reported as acting out sexually with other men
Condescending comments about large Catholic families, "Catholics shouldn't breed like rabbits"
The Vatican confirmed that Pope Francis was approving use of “the contraceptive or condom” in certain cases during an in flight press conference when discussing the Zika virus
Said he's not afraid of schism, which is particularly weird because the terrible Vatican deal with the Chinese government which delegitimized the faithful underground Church was justified to "prevent a schism"
Francis welcomed dialogue with those who don't agree with tenets of the Catholic faith but ignored or ridiculed those who believe and adhere to the Catholic faith in ways that differ from his ideas. He has pushed them out of his circle of influence.
Signed Abu Dhabi declaration that "God wills other religions" without clarifying the difference between God's active and passive will.
Francis espoused a tired old liberal interpretation of the story of the loaves and fishes which proposes that Jesus encouraged people to share what they had, rather than multiply the food.
Granted ongoing interviews to an atheist friend journalist who continues to quote the Pope in ways that are a scandal to the Church. These quotes include the denial of the Trinity, denial of the divinity of Jesus, and the denial that hell exists.
Francis changed the Catechism to say the death penalty was "inadmissible". But he provided it with the same conditions as previous popes (1. Increased awareness of the dignity of the person, 2. new understanding of penal sanctions, 3. more power to the state to protect the public from the offender). Francis condemned life imprisonment which runs counter to John Paul II's reasoning for avoiding the death penalty.
Questioned Israel's decision to build a wall which reduced the bombing of its citizens significantly, by stopping his entourage on the Palestinian side and putting his hand on the wall and praying as if to ask God to knock it down.
Got into climate change science in an encyclical without acknowledging in the same document, that it is being used as a tool to promote contraception and abortion on the 3rd world. We would have preferred he stick to general statements about caring for creation.
He spoke about neglect for old people as the greatest social ill, and said the Church has to find a new balance and not talk so much about abortion, gay marriage and contraception. We're wondering what Church he's been attending because we'd love to hear more pastors preaching to the flock about the problems with abortion, contraception and same sex activity.
Pope Francis blessed Amazonian 'Pachamama' idols, which represent the Incan fertility goddess. He recognized the controversial objects as Pachamama, attended an opening service where Amazonians prostrated themselves before the idols in the Vatican Gardens. When they were removed from a Church and thrown in the Tiber river by scandalized Catholics, he apologized to the Amazonian people and said the police retrieved them. There was no apology to scandalized Catholics around the world for allowing syncrenistic services and pagan idols into the heart of the Vatican. To put this in perspective, many martyrs have gone to their deaths for refusing to do the very thing that was done voluntarily in the presence of the Holy Father.
The Pope's final exportation of the Amazonian Synod was mostly good, but then told everyone to go read the synod document which had tons of issues.
He has given uneven treatment of erring liberal factions and traditionalist factions with preferential treatment and encouragement of liberals, which may fuel schism by traditionalists.
The forbiding of the Traditional Latin Mass was largely seen as a hostile move against conservatives rather than an attempt to unify the Church. If he wanted to unify the Church he could have stopped feeding liberal activism in the Church and the Vatican, instead of coming down hard on traditionalists who are reacting to what they see in the Vatican.
He has fed into the COVID 19 vaccine mandates by saying Catholics have a "moral obligation" to be vaccinated for the "common good". This is dispite the use of aborted babies in the development and/or testing of the vaccines, many side effects, 99.5% survival rate in the unvaccinated, natural immunity in those who have had it, and the resulting herd immunity. The Catechism of Catholic Church gives each Catholic freedom of conscience in medical procedures. The Church has previously expressly instructed the faithful to resist any medical vaccine that involves aborted fetuses.

Why do you want to switch topics and talk about Pope Francis? Especially when you're now just bringing up a laundry list of accusations you clearly copied from some (likely illicit) website?

I have no interest in breaking down every claim on your list. However, I'll show how the most outrageous ones fall flat. Hopefully that will show you how this mindset is inherently sinful and flawed. It should also go without saying that these criticisms are not charitable, and thus have no support from Canon 212.3.

Pope Francis has had far more interaction with like minded clergy on the issue of same-sex unions. It also goes without saying that he holds to the orthodox view on this issue. Since in 2021, he approved the CDF's statement about how the Church cannot bless same-sex relationships because they are inherently sinful. A statement that riled up Father James Martin I would add. Indicating that he and Francis are not in agreement here. As Archbishop of Buenos Aires, he condemned the legalization of same-sex marriage as an attack on the family. A couple of years ago, he also stated that men with ssa shouldn't join the seminary. Pope Francis clearly holds to the Catholic position on the matter. Speaking to, or allowing men who may or may not hold this position to remain active in the Church is irrelevant. We don't have a good grasp on what his situation as Shepherd of the whole Church entails.

Pope Francis initially trusted McCarrick because the pontiffs before him also did. If you haven't already, read the McCarrick Report. It exonerated Francis of wrongdoing in regards to the former cardinal.

Amoris Laetitia is 100% orthodox. Firstly, because the document is dealing with people in extremely niche situations (and it makes that very clear). Second, the Church has allowed divorced and remarried people to continue as active members of the Church in the past. For example, the Eastern Christians have traditionally held that divorce isn't inherently sinful. I'd recommend Reason & Theology's video on this subject.

The "Who am I to judge?" comment has been ripped out of context. The statement was about the man in question coming closer to God. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and it's only become controversial because of media outlets taking it out of context. I.e. bearing false witness.

Pope Francis never said that traditional Catholics are "too rigid" or that mothers with many children "shouldn't breed like rabbits." Again, context matters. All he said was that Catholics shouldn't act rigid and unloving. If you don't, then it doesn't apply to you. If you do, then stop it. The second one came from a question regarding contraception. All Francis said was that even though the Church condemns contraception, we also don't believe we need to have an extreme amount of kids. If you took offense to that one, I don't really know what to tell you.

Pope Francis' starement regarding contraception is no different from Pope St Paul VI's. The man who stood against contraception more than anyone else. The point of rejecting contraception is because it's used to negate impregnation. The specific context was whether it is admissible for rape victims to avoid diseases.

God does permissively will other religions. Which is what the final version of that agreement says. Pope Francis also confirmed this after speaking to Archbishop Athanasius Schneider about it. Literally nothing can exist outside of God's permissive will. Including evil.

Nothing wrong with the change in the CCC on the death penalty. It was made abundantly clear in the accompanying letter that the death penalty isn't considered inadmissible for all time. Only that certain modern conditions have changed our perspective on the matter. You can personally disagree, but you can't call this an error.

Climate change is a legitimate problem. You'd be hard-pressed to find any scientists in fields related to the phenomenon that would say otherwise. Just because some people have twisted it into a tool means absolutely nothing. It is a legitimate threat to humanity and our actions that cause it are contrary to what the Church teaches.

Pope Francis has repeatedly condemned LGBT whatever ideology and abortion. It seems he's concerned with people ONLY focusing on these issues when the gamut of Christian concern is far greater. No issue here.

Pope Francis never engaged in anything involving pagan idolatry related to Pachamama. This claim has been refuted a million times over and I'm sick of having to keep explaining it. Here's a link that does so better than I can: https://wherepeteris.com/our-lady-of-the-amazon-solving-the-contradictions/

For the "cliffnotes" version, none of the statues were idols. The people who presented them to the Pope referred to the one in question as the Virgin Mary, and others called them symbols. Everyone involved denied the claim that they represented pagan idols. To reject their statement would be the sin of evil suspicion.

Literally nobody has been martyred for not accepting a non-European image of the Virgin Mary.

"He has given uneven treatment of erring liberal factions and traditionalist factions with preferential treatment and encouragement of liberals, which may fuel schism by traditionalists." Explain. I've seen the exact opposite of this, and there's no excuse for schism just because of not liking the Pope. Don't try to support such sinful behavior.

Pope Francis never forbid the "traditional Latin mass." He gave bishops the right to allow the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite in their diocese. A right that they technically should always have had as part of their episcopal authority. Also "TLM" is wholly anachronistic. Every approved form of liturgy is by default traditional, and there are multiple Latin liturgies. Including the ordinary form. Beyond all this, Traditionis Custodes was unfortunately necessary. Far too many Catholics are walking into schism simply because of their interest in the 1962 Missal. It's a shame that this is where we're at, but you can't blame Pope Francis for it.

Covid vaccines aren't made from aborted fetuses. Cell lines used in testing for some vaccines came from one aborted fetuses from decades ago. This has been common knowledge for years now. If you consider that as nullifying any moral use that could be obtained from the vaccines, then I'm assuming you also don't use computers or cell phones right? After all, it's pretty much impossible to buy and use them without indirectly supporting slave labor that makes them.

I couldn't care less to argue Covid talking points with you.

Yes the Church has allowed, and continues to allow Catholics to recieve the vaccine as they see fit. Pope Francis hasn't forced all Catholics to get the Covid vaccine and clearly has no intent to do so. Also why do you care if the Church previously taught something? You clearly don't care about what it currently teaches so why don't you apply your skepticism evenly? The Church is the Church. If it was authoritative in the past, it's authoritative now.

This is why I hate talking about Pope Francis criticisms. They're always lazy and resort to slander and misinformation.

Also, avoid this kind of "shotgun argumentation" in the future. Just throwing a million accusations out there makes the conversation confusing. It's easier to make a mess than clean one up if you catch my meaning.

Reginum wrote:thats not a good pope. But not the worst pope we have ever had.

Pull the log out of your eye first.

Ottovanus wrote:Pull the log out of your eye first.[/qu[quote=ottovanus;50082847]Why do you want to switch topics and talk about Pope Francis? Especially when you're now just bringing up a laundry list of accusations you clearly copied from some (likely illicit) website?

I have no interest in breaking down every claim on your list. However, I'll show how the most outrageous ones fall flat. Hopefully that will show you how this mindset is inherently sinful and flawed. It should also go without saying that these criticisms are not charitable, and thus have no support from Canon 212.3.

Pope Francis has had far more interaction with like minded clergy on the issue of same-sex unions. It also goes without saying that he holds to the orthodox view on this issue. Since in 2021, he approved the CDF's statement about how the Church cannot bless same-sex relationships because they are inherently sinful. A statement that riled up Father James Martin I would add. Indicating that he and Francis are not in agreement here. As Archbishop of Buenos Aires, he condemned the legalization of same-sex marriage as an attack on the family. A couple of years ago, he also stated that men with ssa shouldn't join the seminary. Pope Francis clearly holds to the Catholic position on the matter. Speaking to, or allowing men who may or may not hold this position to remain active in the Church is irrelevant. We don't have a good grasp on what his situation as Shepherd of the whole Church entails.

Pope Francis initially trusted McCarrick because the pontiffs before him also did. If you haven't already, read the McCarrick Report. It exonerated Francis of wrongdoing in regards to the former cardinal.

Amoris Laetitia is 100% orthodox. Firstly, because the document is dealing with people in extremely niche situations (and it makes that very clear). Second, the Church has allowed divorced and remarried people to continue as active members of the Church in the past. For example, the Eastern Christians have traditionally held that divorce isn't inherently sinful. I'd recommend Reason & Theology's video on this subject.

The "Who am I to judge?" comment has been ripped out of context. The statement was about the man in question coming closer to God. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and it's only become controversial because of media outlets taking it out of context. I.e. bearing false witness.

Pope Francis never said that traditional Catholics are "too rigid" or that mothers with many children "shouldn't breed like rabbits." Again, context matters. All he said was that Catholics shouldn't act rigid and unloving. If you don't, then it doesn't apply to you. If you do, then stop it. The second one came from a question regarding contraception. All Francis said was that even though the Church condemns contraception, we also don't believe we need to have an extreme amount of kids. If you took offense to that one, I don't really know what to tell you.

Pope Francis' starement regarding contraception is no different from Pope St Paul VI's. The man who stood against contraception more than anyone else. The point of rejecting contraception is because it's used to negate impregnation. The specific context was whether it is admissible for rape victims to avoid diseases.

God does permissively will other religions. Which is what the final version of that agreement says. Pope Francis also confirmed this after speaking to Archbishop Athanasius Schneider about it. Literally nothing can exist outside of God's permissive will. Including evil.

Nothing wrong with the change in the CCC on the death penalty. It was made abundantly clear in the accompanying letter that the death penalty isn't considered inadmissible for all time. Only that certain modern conditions have changed our perspective on the matter. You can personally disagree, but you can't call this an error.

Climate change is a legitimate problem. You'd be hard-pressed to find any scientists in fields related to the phenomenon that would say otherwise. Just because some people have twisted it into a tool means absolutely nothing. It is a legitimate threat to humanity and our actions that cause it are contrary to what the Church teaches.

Pope Francis has repeatedly condemned LGBT whatever ideology and abortion. It seems he's concerned with people ONLY focusing on these issues when the gamut of Christian concern is far greater. No issue here.

Pope Francis never engaged in anything involving pagan idolatry related to Pachamama. This claim has been refuted a million times over and I'm sick of having to keep explaining it. Here's a link that does so better than I can: https://wherepeteris.com/our-lady-of-the-amazon-solving-the-contradictions/

For the "cliffnotes" version, none of the statues were idols. The people who presented them to the Pope referred to the one in question as the Virgin Mary, and others called them symbols. Everyone involved denied the claim that they represented pagan idols. To reject their statement would be the sin of evil suspicion.

Literally nobody has been martyred for not accepting a non-European image of the Virgin Mary.

"He has given uneven treatment of erring liberal factions and traditionalist factions with preferential treatment and encouragement of liberals, which may fuel schism by traditionalists." Explain. I've seen the exact opposite of this, and there's no excuse for schism just because of not liking the Pope. Don't try to support such sinful behavior.

Pope Francis never forbid the "traditional Latin mass." He gave bishops the right to allow the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite in their diocese. A right that they technically should always have had as part of their episcopal authority. Also "TLM" is wholly anachronistic. Every approved form of liturgy is by default traditional, and there are multiple Latin liturgies. Including the ordinary form. Beyond all this, Traditionis Custodes was unfortunately necessary. Far too many Catholics are walking into schism simply because of their interest in the 1962 Missal. It's a shame that this is where we're at, but you can't blame Pope Francis for it.

Covid vaccines aren't made from aborted fetuses. Cell lines used in testing for some vaccines came from one aborted fetuses from decades ago. This has been common knowledge for years now. If you consider that as nullifying any moral use that could be obtained from the vaccines, then I'm assuming you also don't use computers or cell phones right? After all, it's pretty much impossible to buy and use them without indirectly supporting slave labor that makes them.

I couldn't care less to argue Covid talking points with you.

Yes the Church has allowed, and continues to allow Catholics to recieve the vaccine as they see fit. Pope Francis hasn't forced all Catholics to get the Covid vaccine and clearly has no intent to do so. Also why do you care if the Church previously taught something? You clearly don't care about what it currently teaches so why don't you apply your skepticism evenly? The Church is the Church. If it was authoritative in the past, it's authoritative now.

This is why I hate talking about Pope Francis criticisms. They're always lazy and resort to slander and misinformation.

Also, avoid this kind of "shotgun argumentation" in the future. Just throwing a million accusations out there makes the conversation confusing. It's easier to make a mess than clean one up if you catch my meaning.

first of all, you started that off rude as heck man, chill
second off he allowed pagan aztec dance in a catholic mass
and partook in pagan rituals in canada
I imagine Mary as a normal girl,” Francis said, “a girl of today, open to getting married, to having a family”. However — Mary was not just “any” girl in Holy Scripture at the Annunciation the Archangel Gabriel hailed her as “full of grace”, saying, “blessed art thou among women” and that she would “conceive the Son of the Most High.” Thats kinda a big differnce from being ordinary.
and while climate change is an issue, and I agree with that, and Francis' beliefe that we need to take better care of it, it is a sin against God, not earth. One cannot sin against earth, only against God.“God”, Francis assures us, “always forgives; we humans sometimes forgive, but the earth never forgives. If we despoil the earth, its response will be very ugly.
He also led the charge to, and approved a change to the wording of the Lord’s Prayer. Instead of saying “lead us not into temptation”, it will say “do not let us fall into temptation”. Even though the pray was institued by Christ, and the Church has used the same prayer from her inception. We may have translated it, as i am sure you will point out, but we never altered the words to appeal to cultural and cronological sensitivities.
also you cherry picked each acusation, but not the overall point. How is the vicar of Christ supposed to be morrally okay with allowing these changes? How should the pope recive pagan gifts with open arms? AS christians we are supposed to abstain from the appearance of evil, yet His Holiness violated the first commandment by blessing these pagan idols and saying they still led to God. Even the Cardinals condemmed this act as a violation of the first commandment.

Reginum wrote:first of all, you started that off rude as heck man, chill
second off he allowed pagan aztec dance in a catholic mass
and partook in pagan rituals in canada
I imagine Mary as a normal girl,” Francis said, “a girl of today, open to getting married, to having a family”. However — Mary was not just “any” girl in Holy Scripture at the Annunciation the Archangel Gabriel hailed her as “full of grace”, saying, “blessed art thou among women” and that she would “conceive the Son of the Most High.” Thats kinda a big differnce from being ordinary.
and while climate change is an issue, and I agree with that, and Francis' beliefe that we need to take better care of it, it is a sin against God, not earth. One cannot sin against earth, only against God.“God”, Francis assures us, “always forgives; we humans sometimes forgive, but the earth never forgives. If we despoil the earth, its response will be very ugly.
He also led the charge to, and approved a change to the wording of the Lord’s Prayer. Instead of saying “lead us not into temptation”, it will say “do not let us fall into temptation”. Even though the pray was institued by Christ, and the Church has used the same prayer from her inception. We may have translated it, as i am sure you will point out, but we never altered the words to appeal to cultural and cronological sensitivities.
also you cherry picked each acusation, but not the overall point. How is the vicar of Christ supposed to be morrally okay with allowing these changes? How should the pope recive pagan gifts with open arms? AS christians we are supposed to abstain from the appearance of evil, yet His Holiness violated the first commandment by blessing these pagan idols and saying they still led to God. Even the Cardinals condemmed this act as a violation of the first commandment.

Paulo Suess, one of the key authors of the Amazon Synod’s working document, commented on this ceremony, saying “so what. Even if it would have been a pagan rite, then it is nevertheless a pagan worship of God.” Stuff like this, is not a misunderstanding, it is a statement which means, hey we dont care about Christianity, as long as it has moderatly similar beats, its gonna take you to God. So the question is why did Jesus tell us to mission if that was the case?

It goes without saying that the presidency is not to be treated like the United States Presidency or any other political office where we sit back and critic the office holder like backseat drivers. What we as faithful Catholics will with our entire hearts is the success and good of the Holy Father and his continuing work to spread the faith far and wide while enriching it in the souls of those of us who already live by it. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I can do the job of pope any better because Lord knows it is probably much more difficult than I can possibly comprehend with all the theological and even political complexities that come with every word and act that is done or said.

Our Church is not divided into political parties of conservative and liberal Catholics who play sides and take shots to make their positions seem stronger. We have the benefit of the Holy Spirit which gives us the gift of Charity, the ability to seek understanding and truth even when it may seem difficult for us to see it immediately. NationStates is filled with gotcha games as it is, and there is certainly no need for that here or in the one true faith.

Yes, the things Pope Francis says and does can seem perplexing or at first difficult to understand in the grand scheme. He does not have the same theological background as JPII or Benedict XVI, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have something to say or bring to the papacy and the Church writ large. We can talk about those things which seem troubling to us without doing so in a way which is damaging to the office of the papacy or the dignity of the Francis pontificate. This is the way of speaking about theology with dignity and respect.

All this is to say that though great latitude is allowed here in Catholic, schismatics will not be.

Reginum wrote:first of all, you started that off rude as heck man, chill
second off he allowed pagan aztec dance in a catholic mass
and partook in pagan rituals in canada
I imagine Mary as a normal girl,” Francis said, “a girl of today, open to getting married, to having a family”. However — Mary was not just “any” girl in Holy Scripture at the Annunciation the Archangel Gabriel hailed her as “full of grace”, saying, “blessed art thou among women” and that she would “conceive the Son of the Most High.” Thats kinda a big differnce from being ordinary.
and while climate change is an issue, and I agree with that, and Francis' beliefe that we need to take better care of it, it is a sin against God, not earth. One cannot sin against earth, only against God.“God”, Francis assures us, “always forgives; we humans sometimes forgive, but the earth never forgives. If we despoil the earth, its response will be very ugly.
He also led the charge to, and approved a change to the wording of the Lord’s Prayer. Instead of saying “lead us not into temptation”, it will say “do not let us fall into temptation”. Even though the pray was institued by Christ, and the Church has used the same prayer from her inception. We may have translated it, as i am sure you will point out, but we never altered the words to appeal to cultural and cronological sensitivities.
also you cherry picked each acusation, but not the overall point. How is the vicar of Christ supposed to be morrally okay with allowing these changes? How should the pope recive pagan gifts with open arms? AS christians we are supposed to abstain from the appearance of evil, yet His Holiness violated the first commandment by blessing these pagan idols and saying they still led to God. Even the Cardinals condemmed this act as a violation of the first commandment.

My guy, you came in swinging at the Pope. What kind of reaction were you expecting?

"he allowed pagan aztec dance in a catholic mass and partook in pagan rituals in Canada." No he didn't. Just calling something pagan doesn't make it pagan. It should also go without saying that this is bearing false witness.

I'm not going to continue discussing any of this with you unless you apologize for repeatedly publicly sinning like this.

Ottovanus wrote:My guy, you came in swinging at the Pope. What kind of reaction were you expecting?I'm not going to continue discussing any of this with you unless you apologize for repeatedly publicly sinning like this.

"he allowed pagan aztec dance in a catholic mass and partook in pagan rituals in Canada." No he didn't. Just calling something pagan doesn't make it pagan. It should also go without saying that this is bearing false witness.

should juda maccabee have apologized for rejecting the heresy of hellonism? All I have done is state a fact. If you wanna be a child, be one. And no i didnt, my first post was me asking people to read my essay where i justified catholic theology with the king james bible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBEQh37nA60 here is a link to a video talking about the canadian thing
https://en.protothema.gr/pope-francis-takes-part-in-smudging-ritual-in-canada-where-western-grandmother-is-invoked/ and a news article to boot.
http://adventmessenger.org/the-ecumenical-circus-pagan-aztec-dance-ritual-performed-at-a-catholic-church-in-chicago/ here is one for the aztec thing, which as a hispanic person is double offensive, because they did it in chicago, so its not like they were celebrating the nations history or culture.
https://www.thenews-messenger.com/story/news/local/2014/12/12/dancing-lady-guadalupe/20332223/ and another link for the same thing.
those dances were prayers to the sun and moon """""""gods"""""""" which litterally makes them pagan.
“When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.” Deuteronomy 18:9.

pope francis is a modern day antiocus IV. He has dilluted our church to fit the world, rather than encouraging the world to fit the church. I will not apologize for standing like Judah Maccabee against such a man. The Catholic Faith is not the Pope, it goes beyond him, for all time, and that is my faith. I will stand by her theology, and fight for her, but I cannot abide the destruction of the faith, and our Church, from within.
Ban me if you must
But God help me, for I stand with His truth.
God save the Church, and the Catholic World

Reginum wrote:"he allowed pagan aztec dance in a catholic mass and partook in pagan rituals in Canada." No he didn't. Just calling something pagan doesn't make it pagan. It should also go without saying that this is bearing false witness.

should juda maccabee have apologized for rejecting the heresy of hellonism? All I have done is state a fact. If you wanna be a child, be one. And no i didnt, my first post was me asking people to read my essay where i justified catholic theology with the king james bible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBEQh37nA60 here is a link to a video talking about the canadian thing
https://en.protothema.gr/pope-francis-takes-part-in-smudging-ritual-in-canada-where-western-grandmother-is-invoked/ and a news article to boot.
http://adventmessenger.org/the-ecumenical-circus-pagan-aztec-dance-ritual-performed-at-a-catholic-church-in-chicago/ here is one for the aztec thing, which as a hispanic person is double offensive, because they did it in chicago, so its not like they were celebrating the nations history or culture.
https://www.thenews-messenger.com/story/news/local/2014/12/12/dancing-lady-guadalupe/20332223/ and another link for the same thing.
those dances were prayers to the sun and moon """""""gods"""""""" which litterally makes them pagan.
“When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.” Deuteronomy 18:9.

pope francis is a modern day antiocus IV. He has dilluted our church to fit the world, rather than encouraging the world to fit the church. I will not apologize for standing like Judah Maccabee against such a man. The Catholic Faith is not the Pope, it goes beyond him, for all time, and that is my faith. I will stand by her theology, and fight for her, but I cannot abide the destruction of the faith, and our Church, from within.
Ban me if you must
But God help me, for I stand with His truth.
God save the Church, and the Catholic World

Obstinate error is a pretty big sin dude. I'll pray for you.

Ottovanus wrote:Obstinate error is a pretty big sin dude. I'll pray for you.

i will for you as well
way to use prayer as an insult
thats not blasphemous

Reginum wrote:i will for you as well
way to use prayer as an insult
thats not blasphemous

Dude. How did you take that as an insult at all? Also funny to hear accusations of blasphemy from the guy who's accusing the Body of Christ of defecting from the faith.

Ottovanus wrote:Dude. How did you take that as an insult at all? Also funny to hear accusations of blasphemy from the guy who's accusing the Body of Christ of defecting from the faith.

the pope is the body of Christ now? I thought that was the Eucharist.
And your not southern, are you, son? Around here that means to f-word yourself.

Reginum wrote:the pope is the body of Christ now? I thought that was the Eucharist.
And your not southern, are you, son? Around here that means to f-word yourself.

The Pope is the visible and indefectable head of Christ's Church. Which is the Body and Bride of Christ. So yeah, when you insinuate that Pope Francis has defected, endorses heresy, pagan idolatry, and apostasy, then you attack the whole Church. Which, by the way, supports him by and large. His detractors are largely fringe rad trads.

No, I'm not from the south, and I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of Christians wouldn't take intercessory prayers as on par with the f word.

Ottovanus wrote:The Pope is the visible and indefectable head of Christ's Church. Which is the Body and Bride of Christ. So yeah, when you insinuate that Pope Francis has defected, endorses heresy, pagan idolatry, and apostasy, then you attack the whole Church. Which, by the way, supports him by and large. His detractors are largely fringe rad trads.

No, I'm not from the south, and I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of Christians wouldn't take intercessory prayers as on par with the f word.

its also context friend, and in the south telling someone you will pray for them, in an argument, is like saying to someone that they are mentally retarded and need to f off
and again i gave you the proof.
Sorry, but I will not recant
deal with it

Reginum wrote:its also context friend, and in the south telling someone you will pray for them, in an argument, is like saying to someone that they are mentally retarded and need to f off
and again i gave you the proof.
Sorry, but I will not recant
deal with it

Again, you could've raised your concerns without just throwing accusations around as if they're a given. That's absolutely sinful. And yes, you can't hold the faith yet deny doctrines of it regarding the Papacy. Either you're right about Pope Francis and Catholicism is a false religion, or you're wrong about him and Catholicism remains. There's no scenario where you're correct and Catholicism can be true.

Also the last thing you need is more internet discussions. You need prayer and contemplation.

I'll pray for you and your conversion. Seriously.

Reginum wrote:Does it seem likely that the Pope would be clear in his words? Yes it does. It litterally says that you cannot change it. And if commonality makes truth, we should all be muhammedins, because they are more common than catholics

I think this may help correct your confusion on this matter:
https://youtu.be/ROJGXqgk86Y

Ottovanus wrote:Again, you could've raised your concerns without just throwing accusations around as if they're a given. That's absolutely sinful. And yes, you can't hold the faith yet deny doctrines of it regarding the Papacy. Either you're right about Pope Francis and Catholicism is a false religion, or you're wrong about him and Catholicism remains. There's no scenario where you're correct and Catholicism can be tru

Also the last thing you need is more internet discussions. You need prayer and contemplation.

I'll pray for you and your conversion. Seriously.

Ottovanus wrote:Again, you could've raised your concerns without just throwing accusations around as if they're a given. That's absolutely sinful. And yes, you can't hold the faith yet deny doctrines of it regarding the Papacy. Either you're right about Pope Francis and Catholicism is a false religion, or you're wrong about him and Catholicism remains. There's no scenario where you're correct and Catholicism can be true.

Also the last thing you need is more internet discussions. You need prayer and contemplation.

I'll pray for you and your conversion. Seriously.

so we have to be cool with idolitry that even cardinals arent cool with, and the changing of prayers, and the many other things that the pope is doing that go against the Church to be Catholic? Well then im not Catholic.

Hi

As much as it is hard to do we have to listen to the pope in matters of faith and teaching because of papal infallibillity

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