by Max Barry

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Region: Catholic

Ottovanus wrote:Pull the log out of your eye first.[/qu[quote=ottovanus;50082847]Why do you want to switch topics and talk about Pope Francis? Especially when you're now just bringing up a laundry list of accusations you clearly copied from some (likely illicit) website?

I have no interest in breaking down every claim on your list. However, I'll show how the most outrageous ones fall flat. Hopefully that will show you how this mindset is inherently sinful and flawed. It should also go without saying that these criticisms are not charitable, and thus have no support from Canon 212.3.

Pope Francis has had far more interaction with like minded clergy on the issue of same-sex unions. It also goes without saying that he holds to the orthodox view on this issue. Since in 2021, he approved the CDF's statement about how the Church cannot bless same-sex relationships because they are inherently sinful. A statement that riled up Father James Martin I would add. Indicating that he and Francis are not in agreement here. As Archbishop of Buenos Aires, he condemned the legalization of same-sex marriage as an attack on the family. A couple of years ago, he also stated that men with ssa shouldn't join the seminary. Pope Francis clearly holds to the Catholic position on the matter. Speaking to, or allowing men who may or may not hold this position to remain active in the Church is irrelevant. We don't have a good grasp on what his situation as Shepherd of the whole Church entails.

Pope Francis initially trusted McCarrick because the pontiffs before him also did. If you haven't already, read the McCarrick Report. It exonerated Francis of wrongdoing in regards to the former cardinal.

Amoris Laetitia is 100% orthodox. Firstly, because the document is dealing with people in extremely niche situations (and it makes that very clear). Second, the Church has allowed divorced and remarried people to continue as active members of the Church in the past. For example, the Eastern Christians have traditionally held that divorce isn't inherently sinful. I'd recommend Reason & Theology's video on this subject.

The "Who am I to judge?" comment has been ripped out of context. The statement was about the man in question coming closer to God. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and it's only become controversial because of media outlets taking it out of context. I.e. bearing false witness.

Pope Francis never said that traditional Catholics are "too rigid" or that mothers with many children "shouldn't breed like rabbits." Again, context matters. All he said was that Catholics shouldn't act rigid and unloving. If you don't, then it doesn't apply to you. If you do, then stop it. The second one came from a question regarding contraception. All Francis said was that even though the Church condemns contraception, we also don't believe we need to have an extreme amount of kids. If you took offense to that one, I don't really know what to tell you.

Pope Francis' starement regarding contraception is no different from Pope St Paul VI's. The man who stood against contraception more than anyone else. The point of rejecting contraception is because it's used to negate impregnation. The specific context was whether it is admissible for rape victims to avoid diseases.

God does permissively will other religions. Which is what the final version of that agreement says. Pope Francis also confirmed this after speaking to Archbishop Athanasius Schneider about it. Literally nothing can exist outside of God's permissive will. Including evil.

Nothing wrong with the change in the CCC on the death penalty. It was made abundantly clear in the accompanying letter that the death penalty isn't considered inadmissible for all time. Only that certain modern conditions have changed our perspective on the matter. You can personally disagree, but you can't call this an error.

Climate change is a legitimate problem. You'd be hard-pressed to find any scientists in fields related to the phenomenon that would say otherwise. Just because some people have twisted it into a tool means absolutely nothing. It is a legitimate threat to humanity and our actions that cause it are contrary to what the Church teaches.

Pope Francis has repeatedly condemned LGBT whatever ideology and abortion. It seems he's concerned with people ONLY focusing on these issues when the gamut of Christian concern is far greater. No issue here.

Pope Francis never engaged in anything involving pagan idolatry related to Pachamama. This claim has been refuted a million times over and I'm sick of having to keep explaining it. Here's a link that does so better than I can: https://wherepeteris.com/our-lady-of-the-amazon-solving-the-contradictions/

For the "cliffnotes" version, none of the statues were idols. The people who presented them to the Pope referred to the one in question as the Virgin Mary, and others called them symbols. Everyone involved denied the claim that they represented pagan idols. To reject their statement would be the sin of evil suspicion.

Literally nobody has been martyred for not accepting a non-European image of the Virgin Mary.

"He has given uneven treatment of erring liberal factions and traditionalist factions with preferential treatment and encouragement of liberals, which may fuel schism by traditionalists." Explain. I've seen the exact opposite of this, and there's no excuse for schism just because of not liking the Pope. Don't try to support such sinful behavior.

Pope Francis never forbid the "traditional Latin mass." He gave bishops the right to allow the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite in their diocese. A right that they technically should always have had as part of their episcopal authority. Also "TLM" is wholly anachronistic. Every approved form of liturgy is by default traditional, and there are multiple Latin liturgies. Including the ordinary form. Beyond all this, Traditionis Custodes was unfortunately necessary. Far too many Catholics are walking into schism simply because of their interest in the 1962 Missal. It's a shame that this is where we're at, but you can't blame Pope Francis for it.

Covid vaccines aren't made from aborted fetuses. Cell lines used in testing for some vaccines came from one aborted fetuses from decades ago. This has been common knowledge for years now. If you consider that as nullifying any moral use that could be obtained from the vaccines, then I'm assuming you also don't use computers or cell phones right? After all, it's pretty much impossible to buy and use them without indirectly supporting slave labor that makes them.

I couldn't care less to argue Covid talking points with you.

Yes the Church has allowed, and continues to allow Catholics to recieve the vaccine as they see fit. Pope Francis hasn't forced all Catholics to get the Covid vaccine and clearly has no intent to do so. Also why do you care if the Church previously taught something? You clearly don't care about what it currently teaches so why don't you apply your skepticism evenly? The Church is the Church. If it was authoritative in the past, it's authoritative now.

This is why I hate talking about Pope Francis criticisms. They're always lazy and resort to slander and misinformation.

Also, avoid this kind of "shotgun argumentation" in the future. Just throwing a million accusations out there makes the conversation confusing. It's easier to make a mess than clean one up if you catch my meaning.

first of all, you started that off rude as heck man, chill
second off he allowed pagan aztec dance in a catholic mass
and partook in pagan rituals in canada
I imagine Mary as a normal girl,” Francis said, “a girl of today, open to getting married, to having a family”. However — Mary was not just “any” girl in Holy Scripture at the Annunciation the Archangel Gabriel hailed her as “full of grace”, saying, “blessed art thou among women” and that she would “conceive the Son of the Most High.” Thats kinda a big differnce from being ordinary.
and while climate change is an issue, and I agree with that, and Francis' beliefe that we need to take better care of it, it is a sin against God, not earth. One cannot sin against earth, only against God.“God”, Francis assures us, “always forgives; we humans sometimes forgive, but the earth never forgives. If we despoil the earth, its response will be very ugly.
He also led the charge to, and approved a change to the wording of the Lord’s Prayer. Instead of saying “lead us not into temptation”, it will say “do not let us fall into temptation”. Even though the pray was institued by Christ, and the Church has used the same prayer from her inception. We may have translated it, as i am sure you will point out, but we never altered the words to appeal to cultural and cronological sensitivities.
also you cherry picked each acusation, but not the overall point. How is the vicar of Christ supposed to be morrally okay with allowing these changes? How should the pope recive pagan gifts with open arms? AS christians we are supposed to abstain from the appearance of evil, yet His Holiness violated the first commandment by blessing these pagan idols and saying they still led to God. Even the Cardinals condemmed this act as a violation of the first commandment.

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