well people only hear what the see on the media but behind closed doors trump could still be really critical of Russia. besides would we really be better off with Hillary as president she violated her own state dept rules that has sent others to prison for years plus she's lied to the families of fallen soldiers about how they died id rather have a businessman whos had some ups and downs in the financial market then someone whos downs could cost people their lives.
Issues Test Bed and The lazy scrublands
This isn't really about all that anymore. Stop talking about what we could have and look at what we do have. This is about the President on the world stage questioning his own intelligence community and supporting Russia's instead. Do you really think they have forgotten about the Cold War? What do you think would have happened if Reagan had declared that the CIA was untrustworthy and the KGB had been right all along? America's democracy is under attack, and the President is choosing to do nothing. The President is failing to live up to the most basic part of his Oath, to protect this nation. There should be people rioting in the streets.
And on cue, a perfect example of why everyone ought to be afraid of another country influencing the ballot box. If you don't care that this is happening here in America, and that we have the evidence that supports that conclusion, I have to question whether or not you are for a democratic republic as it currently exists in America. There are many things this country was founded upon, but it was certainly founded on the right for each of us to have the right of choosing our elected representatives. Allowing Russia or any other country to have an outside influence on our elections is a profane perversion of the very impetus of why we rebelled against Britain in the first place. In fact, this is also the very reason why the 2nd Amendment exists, so that Americans would always have the power to fight their government, if need be. I'm a staunch pacifist, and I would never advocate violence, but if you're not outraged about what happened today, I don't know what you're waiting for. Either you are for a free America, or you aren't. This is no longer a partisan issue.
I really like this region: I hope to stay here for a while and enjoy my time here -:)
I'm very sorry Big Tex.
UNSC Brilliance of Ingenuity – Main nation. Voted for Space Center/ Cape Canaveral
UNSC Brilliance – Vote withdrawn, abstaining from voting
UNSC Ingenuity – Vote withdrawn, abstaining from voting
Brilliance of Ingenuity – Vote withdrawn, abstaining from voting
Of course you are.
Going to allow it? Heck, I am supporting it.
I have a reality check for you. Might want to sit down. This is likely to be a little rough for you. Ready? Good. Here we go.
Trump is your fault. That's right. Your fault and every other member of the New American Socialist Victim Workers Party that thought either Hillary or Bernie was a good idea. The Left in this nation ran a self identifying socialist and a woman so freaking crooked and offensive she could not even beat Donald Trump in an election rigged in her favor.
Seriously. The people on the Left are so far out of touch with reality they actually thought those people that decide elections in this nation (the people in the middle) would vote for Hillary just because the vast majority of the media told them to. The Democrats didn't think that anyone would mind if they undermined Bernie's chances of getting the nomination. After all it was Hillary's turn, right? Everyone knew that.
But you don't want to talk about it.
ROFL!!! Yeah, that'll fix it.
Is that right? Like Obama tried to interfere in Israeli elections to unseat Netanyahu?
The Chosen One's™ sins aside, the fact is the Russians had no effect on the elections. That is one thing everyone seems to agree on. I would go so far as to say they didn't change one vote.
But you think we should be rioting in the streets and unseating the lawfully elected President of the United States. Go ahead and burn your neighborhood. Knock yourself out. But if I were you, I would check with your neighbors first. They might not be on board with the revolution.
Hell I’d just be happy with more people showing up to vote. For being a nation with free and open elections it’s sickening that our overall voter turnout is so low.
Protests and riots do nothing. It’s a pointless endeavor. A cast ballot, if enough people vote, is far more effective. I’m not a Trump supporter, but he’s who got elected and even I know it wasn’t the Russians fault.
In closing Hillary lost because the DNC chose to shove her down everyone’s throat by rigging their own primaries against Bernie. Her wealthy buddies were all Superdelegates. Bernie never stood a chance against her because of that.
Why they chose to force Hillary on us rather than going with the only Candidate poll numbers wise that had a chance to beat Trump I’ll never know but it is what it is. I survived Bush and I’ll survive Trump too.
Bernie is unelectable. He comes off sounding too much like a Cuban revolutionary. It will take another generation or so for the cold war, Cuba, The USSR, and all that history to be blunted enough for a genuine collectivist socialist Like Bernie to win the top slot.
So... I guess the United States has roughly one generation left before it all hits the fan.
NewTexas and Metropolitan america dcu
I noticed in all of that, you didn't actually refute any of my points. You mocked me, made ad hominem attacks, and deflected quite a lot of criticism, but you didn't actually provide any evidence countrary my argument.
You don't know for a fact that Russia had no influence on the election. There is no evidence or consensus that it had no effect, despite your claim. If even one vote was changed because of another country spreading propaganda in this country, it should terrify you. What would be stopping China or any other country from doing the same thing, and perhaps more effectively? At what point does it become a concern that your elected officials may not be representing you anymore? Your attempt to deflect criticism by making a baseless accusation against Obama is laughable. Where are the indictments for them, like the indictments that have been made against the Russians? Unless of course, you think that they had no reason to make those indictments against them.
I don't think you have any proof that backs up what you have to say. I don't think you're even interested in having an actual debate. You're clearly most interested in bullying and making ad hominem attacks than having a dialogue. You're not even making accurate attacks on me. I voted for neither Hillary nor Bernie. I specifically said that I advocated for peace, if you had actually read what I wrote, but you're projecting me to be a violent radical. Your penchant for aggression belies your argument and makes it hollow. I can tell that I am getting under your skin though, otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to attack me personally. I usually would say that trying to talk to someone like you is a waste of my time, but now it's sort of fun.
And, fortunately enough, us Boomers will not have to be around to see it. 😃
Hmm... Seems like a generation is much shorter than we thought. According to some science guys, a generation is 25.5 years. So, when that happens and all of NewAmerica's youth are unemployed and "On The Dole", suckling at Uncle Sam's teat, we really won't care all that much. It will just give us one more reason to squawk such gems as "Damn kids!" and "Get off my lawn!".
I personally find Senator Sanders just fine but that's a story for another time.
Hi I'm from the UK, i dont like the Russians because of the Novichok outbreak, from the investigation today the British intelligence agencies and police have divulged to the public that they have actually found hard evidence of Russian individuals that targeted the Skripals which is CCTV footage that they have sent to all airports.
The point which your making, although different, is kind of the same in regards to the election interference. No one has any evidence to confirm that the Russians were involved, nor has they any evidence there was actual interference.
It seems to me, that from both sides all I have heard is hearsay and numerous opinions and theories. I'm not trying to discount that it happened because it could of, but again where is the evidence.
As for Russian propaganda, I'm not sure what we are looking for here, hidden subversive messaging in corporate advertisements sponsoring parties or elections?
To me all I have heard is American propoganda trying to subvert its own democracy, spreading hate, fear and complete and utter despisement for anything Russian, including Hilary Clinton's hacked emails (it probably was the Russians lol).
The real victory goes to Russia and Vladimir Putin, as the mere mention of involvement gives them a political boost domesticly as it shows to his people that rather the Americans concentrate on its own agenda, it always seems that any policies are reactionary to whatever Russia does or have supposed to be done.
What people must understand is that fighting with the government and military elite is exactly what Putin wants, he wants to destabilize the American government and retake eastern European countries which he believes are Russian territories such as Ukraine, Georgia, Slovakia, etc
What do you think?
I think you are making the larger point here, which is that regardless of anything else, Putin is winning. It's always been his game to undermine Western democracy, especially NATO. Don't forget that NATO is still the strongest alliance in the world, but that it was also formed to counter the then expanding Russian sphere of influence in Europe. The comments about not wanting to protect the newest NATO member are absolutely another win for Putin. NATO's strength is undoubtedly in Article 5, since Russia could not hope to win a direct military struggle against NATO even if the United States weren't involved. This is why Putin has to resort to indirect means of conducting warfare, such as the attempted coup in Montenegro in 2016, the poisonings in the UK, the election meddling in America, among others. As long as Putin can poke holes in NATO, he can continue to weaken it gradually until it's not a threat. Crimea was an initial test in that regard. Even though Ukraine is not a NATO member, no one challenged Putin's power grab. It has embolded him, and I suspect that there will be more attempts to grab former land of the USSR. If the American President, who should absolutely be the one to keep a rogue leader in check, is unwilling or unopposed to fighting against Russian aggression, who does Putin have to be afraid of really? Merkel possibly, but I think Germany is too reliant on Russia for fuel/natural gas.
You're right about Puting wanting to sow as much discord as possible, but I don't think that he's necessarily to blame for the current mood. There has been immense dissatisfaction with the US government for many years, primarily Congress. Both liberals and conservates have felt ignored by the people who are supposed to be speaking for their interests. It's not an accident, the power of lobbyists and special interest groups have become toxic to the government, and prevents it from functioning effectively. Putin is merely taking advantage of an American public that has been disillusioned by the government for years. To really fight back, we need to reenergize Congress by electing people who are not beholden to special interests and attempt to enact policies that work for most Americans. But to be truthful, I worry it's too late for that and things are only going to get worse.
hypothetical: Do you think with the current political climate now or maybe where it's heading that's it might be best to allow 2 Americas one for the left and one for the right? I have always fancied myself to dabble into the alt history mainly US Alt history.
Egregious Erudition and Metropolitan america dcu
I think if the union disolves is would be a big mistake. Diversity is our strength. There are a great many things that most Americans can agree on, it's how these things are implemented that causes problems. I think most Americans can agree on the basis of many principles. I would say that most people would agree that as a citizen, you should have the right to vote, to own a firearm, access to a job, housing, clean water, and food. We have the right to live free from persecution and prejudice. I think most would agree as well that we have the right to our own destiny, so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. These are basic ideas, but they're also common ground that a lot of people share. So the divide between the average person isn't so much, it's the frings movements that I think plays tricks on your perception because they're louder and more outspoken. After all, how many people want to go rally for a cause like "Rewrite the tax code"?
You mean like having to refute the darkness at high noon?
Do you have any evidence that even one vote was changed? (See that refuting thing.. )
I got a flash for you. The Democrats did more to change the outcome of the election playing silly buggers with Bernie's supporters than those Russians did. I don't hear anyone calling for indictments out of the Democratic National Committee.
You crack me up.
Democrats being unpopular and being controlled by hillary who is one of the least liked politicians there is is the main reason trump got elected yeah but you cant just ignore the fact that russia was a huge help to him too.
we don't know that look if Hillary won you would not hear a thing about supposed Russian meddling the only reason we still hear about Russia no almost three years later is because Hillary lost and trump won. the investigation has yet to provide solid evidence of election meddling that people are claiming the Russians did.
Issues Test Bed and British crown dominions
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Let's be honest, the media were pretty biased in favour of Hillary. CNN even gave her the questions in advance in one of the debates (see https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donna-brazile-leaves-cnn/). I don't like Trump much but you can't really deny the media are against him.