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Novsvacro wrote:Yes, I am such a civic nationalist, crypto-fascist, national anarchist *rolls eyes*.
I don't see the issue with recognizing that there are very fundamental differences in cultures, and I certainly don't see how a recognition of these differences at all takes away from the inclusivity of anarchism.

I also happen to be the Francoist Fifth Column and the diabolical, racist snake in the grass. *nods*

Vertway

Prussia-steinbach

Novsvacro wrote:Yes, I am such a civic nationalist, crypto-fascist, national anarchist *rolls eyes*. I also happen to be the Francoist Fifth Column and the diabolical, racist snake in the grass. *nods*

Don't get f*cking snippy with me, Novsvacro. My post was meant as a general, rhetorical statement, not a personal accusation.

You're not that funny, comrade.

Novsvacro wrote:I don't see the issue with recognizing that there are very fundamental differences in cultures, and I certainly don't see how a recognition of these differences at all takes away from the inclusivity of anarchism.

The issues spring from taking pride in one's culture.

Prussia-steinbach wrote:The issues spring from taking pride in one's culture.

How?

Post self-deleted by Novsvacro.

Prussia-steinbach wrote:Don't get f*cking snippy with me, Novsvacro. My post was meant as a general, rhetorical statement, not a personal accusation.
You're not that funny, comrade.

Ditto.

Eh, I didn't carry on this debate because I'm focusing on another theoretical project at the moment. But I feel very strongly about the issue. Even putting aside the history of the past century (where I can't quite tell if nationalism is a plaything of the ruling classes, or simply Death himself), in my everyday life I see an enormous amount of damage done by nationalism and patriotism, from being one of the foremost means of making people love their own chains, to being a direct cause of human suffering in many forms. These are things I see occurring with my own eyes within my workplace and community, not to mention experiencing the violent expressions of nationalism in my anti-fascist activity, and so to see anarchists defending patriotic and nationalist sentiments is extremely unsettling and disturbing for me.

But to be honest, from the defenses being made, I think people are just confusing a love of their own culture and home for nationalism, which is... well... read a history book, on the twentieth century to be precise, and you will see what nationalism is, and it's pretty frightening.

But then of course, there is good nationalism and bad nationalism am I right? And there are good State's and bad State's, good capitalists and bad capitalists, good cops and bad cops, am I right? Sigh.

In actual fact, I'd say the main harm of nationalism is not as a cause of human suffering, but as a rationalisation of human suffering. And that makes the difference between an unethical act of an individual, and the operation of a machine of dehumanisation and destruction of life on a systematic level. If you reflect on these words, with consideration for the reality we face today, and have witnessed in the past, the terrifying significance of this should become apparent.

Prussia-steinbach

Novsvacro wrote:How?

Are you actually asking? Or is this just an argumentative attempt to make me squirm? If it's the former, and you can't fathom how national pride (i.e. patriotism and its variants) can cause issues - issues we want abolished - then I'd question how you made it this far labeling yourself an anarchist.

I'll be here, whenever you're ready to jump down from that sarcastic ivory tower and have an actual conversation. Because this is just childish.

The new sea territory

Today's Anti-Klan protest in Georgia:

https://itsgoingdown.org/igd-atlanta-disrupt-white-power/

Prussia-steinbach wrote:Are you actually asking? Or is this just an argumentative attempt to make me squirm? If it's the former, and you can't fathom how national pride (i.e. patriotism and its variants) can cause issues - issues we want abolished - then I'd question how you made it this far labeling yourself an anarchist.
I'll be here, whenever you're ready to jump down from that sarcastic ivory tower and have an actual conversation. Because this is just childish.

Sorry for being so combative. I've been having a rough day (and a rough end of term).

I think we're misunderstanding each other's conception of pride. I think an appreciation for one's culture coupled with polite and sincere respect for the cultures of others is not at all contradictory to anarchism. Nevertheless, I do think some cultures are simply unamenable to anarchism and moral conduct (I'm sure we don't want to argue anymore about religion, so I'll just mention that I'm more-or-less a moral objectivist and drop it).

Sorry for trying to be a philosophe, my english is not that great. Is there Culture ? State made "culture" is the culture of oneself? or just a tool for the elite to keep people at their "place" happy to live here in whatever your capitalist hellhole is ? Anarchists reconize, i hope, that there is only human culture, with is multiple forms. This culture cannot be hommogeneous because is constatly changed by the people that creates, and i hope everybody feels free to create. The dominant culture, is a burjois kulture, in theses day's paid by banks and curated by the mecanisms of the rich, so they need these ideia of identity, for commercial purpuses, and of course to keep dumb people shouting ! we are the true ( fill blank) ! Take care of the true (fill with a blank "culture") the only true culture in my opinion is the one made freely by the people without the materialist motif. Otherwise is just a way for the elites to keep people focus on borders walls, exepcionalism, and make us all endur all insult for the sake of a stupid ideia. My ideia and of many sis and bros is Freedom ! Land ! Bread ! for all everything for all ! ((A))

Novsvacro and Kassimo

the Praxis is better than words, set fire to the banks and intutions !
viva Durriti viva ema goldmann
lets burn this world
with bombs fire and poetry
paintings and love
for the sufering masses
join our dreams
and be free

A las barricadas ((A))

Odisseo wrote:the Praxis is better than words, set fire to the banks and intutions !
viva Durriti viva ema goldmann
lets burn this world
with bombs fire and poetry
paintings and love
for the sufering masses
join our dreams
and be free
A las barricadas ((A))

Negras tormentas agitan los aires
nubes oscuras nos impiden ver
Aunque nos espere el dolor y la muerte
contra el enemigo nos manda el deber

El bien más preciado es la libertad
hay que defenderla con fe y con valor

Alza la bandera revolucionaria
que del triunfo sin cesar nos lleva en pos
Alza la bandera revolucionaria
que del triunfo sin cesar nos lleva en pos

En pie pueblo obrero, ¡A la batalla!
Hay que derrocar a la reacción

¡A las barricadas, a las barricadas!
¡Por el triunfo de la Confederación!
¡A las barricadas, a las barricadas!
¡Por el triunfo de la Confederación!

Sorry, I had to do it, XD

Folkvangr anarchists and Ylem

Libertarian Australia wrote:Negras tormentas agitan los aires
nubes oscuras nos impiden ver
Aunque nos espere el dolor y la muerte
contra el enemigo nos manda el deber
El bien más preciado es la libertad
hay que defenderla con fe y con valor
Alza la bandera revolucionaria
que del triunfo sin cesar nos lleva en pos
Alza la bandera revolucionaria
que del triunfo sin cesar nos lleva en pos
En pie pueblo obrero, ¡A la batalla!
Hay que derrocar a la reacción
¡A las barricadas, a las barricadas!
¡Por el triunfo de la Confederación!
¡A las barricadas, a las barricadas!
¡Por el triunfo de la Confederación!
Sorry, I had to do it, XD

The wind whistles, the storm rages,
our shoes are broken but we must march on,
to conquer the red spring,
where the sun of the future rises.
to conquer the red spring,
where the sun of the future rises.

Every street is home to the rebel,
every woman has a sigh for him,
the stars guide him through the night,
strong his heart and his arm when they strike.

If cruel death catches us
harsh revenge will come from the partisan
already certain is the harsh fate
of the vile treasonous fascist.

The wind stops and the storm calms,
the proud partisan returns home,
blowing in the wind his red flag,
victorious, at last free we are.

Novsvacro wrote:The wind whistles, the storm rages,
our shoes are broken but we must march on,
to conquer the red spring,
where the sun of the future rises.
to conquer the red spring,
where the sun of the future rises.
Every street is home to the rebel,
every woman has a sigh for him,
the stars guide him through the night,
strong his heart and his arm when they strike.
If cruel death catches us
harsh revenge will come from the partisan
already certain is the harsh fate
of the vile treasonous fascist.
The wind stops and the storm calms,
the proud partisan returns home,
blowing in the wind his red flag,
victorious, at last free we are.

CNT songs are better than communists ones in Spain

That was an Italian partisan song from the Second World War.

Novsvacro wrote:That was an Italian partisan song from the Second World War.

Yeah, I searched for it, its name is Fischia il vento. The music comes from Katyusha. It is curious, the music of A las Barricadas comes from another eastern europe song, Warszawianka.

Odisseo

What do you all think of Tolstoy? I've read Anna Karenina and am borrowing a few of his religious works from a friend of mine.

I'm one of those who would call national anarchism an oxymoron, and in this sense forme it's just like anarchocapitalism. It seems like the only part of anarchism they take is the "no state" thing, but is that really enough to consider it a part of "real" anarchism? According to what I know about it (which isn't much) national anarchism seems like an extreme form of conservative right wing, defending traditionalism and ethnic or racial separation. Here in Spain there is a popular phrase among certain people that would roughly translate to "I'm not racist, I'm just organized", meaning you have nothing against other cultures as long as there's no interaction. Well, racial and cultural mixture is good, and that's common sense, anarchism aside.

Also I'm very uncomfortable with the notion of "pride" on one's culture or race. It simply doesn't make sense to me. And there's nothing wrong about liking your heritage or the place where you come from, but as others have already said nationalism is a whole different story.

Novsvacro, Kassimo, and Folkvangr anarchists

Folkvangr anarchists

Welcome to the FAC, Emma goldmann and Neshayev! Make yourselves at home here.

Odisseo wrote:Sorry for trying to be a philosophe, my english is not that great. Is there Culture ? State made "culture" is the culture of oneself? or just a tool for the elite to keep people at their "place" happy to live here in whatever your capitalist hellhole is ? Anarchists reconize, i hope, that there is only human culture, with is multiple forms. This culture cannot be hommogeneous because is constatly changed by the people that creates, and i hope everybody feels free to create. The dominant culture, is a burjois kulture, in theses day's paid by banks and curated by the mecanisms of the rich, so they need these ideia of identity, for commercial purpuses, and of course to keep dumb people shouting ! we are the true ( fill blank) ! Take care of the true (fill with a blank "culture") the only true culture in my opinion is the one made freely by the people without the materialist motif. Otherwise is just a way for the elites to keep people focus on borders walls, exepcionalism, and make us all endur all insult for the sake of a stupid ideia. My ideia and of many sis and bros is Freedom ! Land ! Bread ! for all everything for all ! ((A))

Culture is the commodity that sells all the others, as they say.

Folkvangr anarchists

I like your new flag Kassimo!

Kincoboh and Kassimo

Oh my goodness - arguing with brocialists who want to protect "free speech" over marginalized peoples is one of the most agonizing things one could do.

Kassimo and Vertway

Folkvangr anarchists wrote:I like your new flag Kassimo!

I like it too

Kassimo and The second international

The new sea territory

Novsvacro wrote:What do you all think of Tolstoy? I've read Anna Karenina and am borrowing a few of his religious works from a friend of mine.

I've read The Kingdom of God is Within You.

I recommend How Nonviolence Protects the State, to smash any defense of nonviolence.

Kassimo and Vertway

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