Capitalist Paradise RMB

WA Delegate: The Grand Duchy of Acario (elected )

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Welcome to Capitalist Paradise! Founded on May 2003, this is a friendly and secure region with exceptionally strong economies, high civil rights and political freedoms. We welcome nations of all categories.

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Justice: Capitalist Producers
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Capitalist Paradise contains 424 nations, the 24th most in the world.

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1.The Armed Corporations of Aurora IslandsWA MemberCapitalist Paradise“If you have money, nothing is impossible!”
2.The Allied Corporate Empire of Northern BorlandCapitalizt“A Good Place to Raise Your Business”
3.The Dictatorship of MDRunieWA MemberCapitalist Paradise“MDR never fails if he fails we deny it ”
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7.The Intergalactic Consortium of Corporate InvestorsCapitalizt“ROI is King”
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9.The Perfidious Theocracy of SnorlaxiaAnarchy“We are always pretty”
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Capitalist Paradise Regional Message Board

Post self-deleted by Xenna.

I

The Foxy Truckin' Theocracy of Funktopia wrote:I had some fun with this a few years ago when I was still in university. I asked some people I knew how they would make a factory more productive. What methods they'd use, what changes they'd make, where they'd get their information, etc. Now I live in Toronto, home of Pride Parade, Slut Walk, Sarkeesian, and every other clueless liberal movement or leader. U of T is just the epicenter. They gave me answers ranging from "internet search" to "independent study." Literally no one said "I'd ask one of the employees who has worked there for decades what could be done about productivity." It highlighted my point quite well.

Next opening I've got, you have a shot at it.

The County of Orlogtun wrote:This hasn't been the norm for well over half a century. I would rather work for professionals with credentials and would more often hire, promote, or recommend for promotion someone with credentials.

Nonsense. In my line of work there are people with all kinds of well credentialed people along side of those with not so many letters after their name. It all comes down to work ethic and enthusiasm for the job. I would rather have someone willing to do the job, learn and find solutions then some clueless pedigreed know it all that cannot see common sense through all that book learning. I hire and promote that way too.

I find experience, attitude and work history outranks "credentials" every time.

The Foxy Truckin' Theocracy of Funktopia wrote:Not even close.

-and-

The County of Orlogtun wrote:Did you read the link?

I don't know where you got the idea that successful CEOs do not (or did not) typically first pursue academic credentials. Certainly the data I linked proves that there is a current and projected shortage of qualified individuals and especially so at the managerial, professional, and executive levels. This was true even prior to half a century ago when Bell Labs and IBM scoured MIT and the Ivy League for the elite.

You have provided a solitary unsourced anecdote to the contrary.

How about these for starters:
- Apple: Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak
- Microsoft: Bill Gates
- The guy that founded Whole Foods Markets. (Cannot remember his name.)
- Hobby Lobby founders
- ESPN's founders Bill and Scott(?) Rasmussen
- The guy that wrote and now runs Wordpress, the blogging software
- Virgin (As in communications and ariline) founder Sir Richard Branson
- Dell Computers: Micheal Dell
- Mr. Ralph Lauren of the clothing line

...and on and on and on and on and last but not least let us not forget Mark "Facebook" Zuckerberg.

I agree with The Foxy Truckin' Theocracy of Funktopia's comment "not even close." Some of the most successful business leaders and innovators in this nation either dropped out of school or didn't go at all.

And frankly speaking, these days colleges no longer teach how to think, they now teach what to think. For the most part colleges and universities have become purveyors of politically correct sensitivity training that has little practical use in the real world. Even the hard sciences are becoming contaminated with politicized science. (See the climate change crowd for one example.)

I think the trend toward corporate leaders that skipped out on college will go nowhere but up from here. Those entrepreneurs that come up through the ranks will have a far better grasp on reality. That firm grasp on reality will put them light years ahead of the ivy league business school grads.

Hello.

The Minister of Bad Behavior of Capitalist Producers wrote:

--------------------
The County of Orlogtun wrote:Did you read the link?
I don't know where you got the idea that successful CEOs do not (or did not) typically first pursue academic credentials. Certainly the data I linked proves that there is a current and projected shortage of qualified individuals and especially so at the managerial, professional, and executive levels. This was true even prior to half a century ago when Bell Labs and IBM scoured MIT and the Ivy League for the elite.

--------------------

-and-
How about these for starters:
- Apple: Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak
- Microsoft: Bill Gates
- The guy that founded Whole Foods Markets. (Cannot remember his name.)
- Hobby Lobby founders
- ESPN's founders Bill and Scott(?) Rasmussen
- The guy that wrote and now runs Wordpress, the blogging software
- Virgin (As in communications and ariline) founder Sir Richard Branson
- Dell Computers: Micheal Dell
- Mr. Ralph Lauren of the clothing line

...and on and on and on and on and last but not least let us not forget Mark "Facebook" Zuckerberg.

I agree with The Foxy Truckin' Theocracy of Funktopia's comment "not even close." Some of the most successful business leaders and innovators in this nation either dropped out of school or didn't go at all.

And frankly speaking, these days colleges no longer teach how to think, they now teach what to think. For the most part colleges and universities have become purveyors of politically correct sensitivity training that has little practical use in the real world. Even the hard sciences are becoming contaminated with politicized science. (See the climate change crowd for one example.)

I think the trend toward corporate leaders that skipped out on college will go nowhere but up from here. Those entrepreneurs that come up through the ranks will have a far better grasp on reality. That firm grasp on reality will put them light years ahead of the ivy league business school grads.


Unfortunately your data set is too small, incomplete, and the same one trotted out ad nauseum at HuffPo or Forbes as "proof" of a bare-faced assertion. The reality is somewhat different:

Andrew Viterbi [Qualcomm] Ph.D. USC
David C Drummond [Google] J.D. Stanford
Irwin M Jacobs [Qualcomm] Sc.D. MIT
Larry Page [Google] M.S. Stanford
Sergey Brin [Google] M.S. Stanford
Elon Musk [PayPal, Tesla] B.A. (Econ) Penn and B.Sc. (Phys.) Penn
Norman Joseph Woodland [co-inventor UPC "barcode"] BSME Drexel
Gordon Kidd Teal [Texas Instruments] Ph.D. (Phys.Chem.) Brown
Terry Welch [LZW algorithm: GIF/PNG] Ph.D. MIT
Linus Torvalds [Linux] M.S. Helsinki
Jorma Ollila [Nokia] 3 Masters Degrees multiple institutions
Vint Cerf [TCP/IP] Ph.D. UCLA
Bob Kahn [TCP/IP] Ph.D. Princeton
Jay S Walker [Priceline] B.S. Cornell
Every Medical Doctor [Your Health] M.D. Real University
Carlos Slim [América Móvil] P.Eng. UNAM
Warren Buffett [Berkshire-Hathaway] M.Sc. (Econ) Columbia
Rod Canion [Compaq] M.Eng. Houston
Sir Tim Berners-Lee [HTTP] Fr.Eng. + Oxford
Jeff Bezos [Amazon] M.S.E. Princeton (also double summa cum laude)
Robert D. Carmichael [Carmichael numbers] Ph.D. Princeton
Steve Chen [YouTube] B.A. UIUC
Jerry Yang [Yahoo!] M.S.E. Stanford
Timothy Koogle [Yahoo!] M.S.E. Stanford
Martin Cooper [Motorola] M.S.E. IIT
Nolan Bushnell [Atari, Chuck E Cheese] B. Eng. Utah
Pierre Omidyar [eBay] BCS Tufts

And on and on and on and on...

All your examples are exceptions and not the rule. If your son or daughter approached you with a plan to attend a pricey liberal arts college in Oregon where they were going to drop LSD and spend a lot of time learning calligraphy, you'd almost surely correct their behaviour and order them to buckle down or they won't earn a scholarship to Stanford or MIT. Yet Steve Jobs is constantly and inappropriately heralded as an exemplary role model by people who would simply not have taken such a route to entrepreneurial success. For every liberal arts acid-dropping calligraphy enthusiast who emerges victorious there are at least fifty others who are now picking bottles out of the trash or the equivalent.

Next: none of those exceptions you cite actually fit The Foxy Truckin' Theocracy of Funktopia's definition. They didn't work their way up from the ground floor. They started companies that happened to succeed yet there are hundreds or thousands of others that try and fail. Simply because a handful were started by dropouts and succeeded doesn't mean they succeeded because they were (initially) led by dropouts. How many of those dropouts tell their own children to eschew a college degree as a blueprint for success? I would gamble the percentage is as near to zero as possible.

Finally: I suspect you will not accept that a college degree is the primary defining line between those who are financially successful and those who are not. Between those who may compete for professional careers and those who cannot. It's not the only defining line but it is a pretty good indicator. Few people bother reading demographic or economic reports that clearly demonstrate the accelerating rate of professionalism in the workforce.

Nation of Quebec, Faehig, and Itorcya

While economies around the world are becoming more and more specialized, for now and for a while hereafter, I suspect the majority of jobs require on-the-job professionalism. As in, not merely academic or studious professionalism, but the social and intellectual professionalism that each job holds different degrees and forms of in itself.
Speaking of which, why are our high schools still as generalized as they are if few if any who would disagree that economies will in the future require specialized skills?

The County of Orlogtun wrote:Finally: I suspect you will not accept that a college degree is the primary defining line between those who are financially successful and those who are not.


You got that right. Most of today's institutes of "higher learning" are cesspools of progressive idealism more interested in teaching socialist garbage and what students should be thinking rather then how to think and real world knowledge.

The County of Orlogtun wrote:Between those who may compete for professional careers and those who cannot. It's not the only defining line but it is a pretty good indicator. Few people bother reading demographic or economic reports that clearly demonstrate the accelerating rate of professionalism in the workforce.

Just for grins I practiced my Google-Fu. Check these out:

http://www.collegedropoutshalloffame.com/
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-successful-college-droputs-2013-9?op=1
http://www.businessinsider.com/top-100-entrepreneurs-who-made-millions-without-a-college-degree-2011-1
http://www.interesticle.com/entertainment/10-richest-people-who-did-not-finish-college/
http://www.fastcompany.com/3030631/hit-the-ground-running/10-famous-founders-who-didnt-graduate-from-college
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ashleyperez/23-famous-dropouts-who-turned-out-just-fine#.egWpdORdx
https://overmanwarrior.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/successful-people-that-didnt-go-to-college/
http://elitedaily.com/news/business/100-top-entrepreneurs-succeeded-college-degree/

There are lots more pages of examples of people did not need the college to reach the top. People from Lincoln to Warren Buffet bagged the higher education route and did their own thing. Feel free to dig further if you feel the need. Clearly an ivy league diploma is not essential to success or even making the big time. It never has been. It is all about the person going for the gold. If it is not the right person, the gold cannot be reached. It doesn't matter how much education they have. It doesn't matter if they go for the small gold like a neighborhood bar or big time gold like Harpo Productions (Oprah). It all depends on who is driving the effort. At best, the school they went to may offer some short cuts to the goal, but in cannot give people what it takes to make the grade.

It is certainly true in my industry.

I got this telegram from the WA: The World Assembly wishes to notify you that due to the passage of a resolution to Repeal "World Space Administration", Capitalist Producers is no longer obligated to comply with its provisions.

First time in a long time the WA gave me a reason to smile.

Nikolausstadt

The Minister of Bad Behavior of Capitalist Producers wrote:You got that right. Most of today's institutes of "higher learning" are cesspools of progressive idealism more interested in teaching socialist garbage and what students should be thinking rather then how to think and real world knowledge.

Just for grins I practiced my Google-Fu. Check these out:

http://www.collegedropoutshalloffame.com/
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-successful-college-droputs-2013-9?op=1
http://www.businessinsider.com/top-100-entrepreneurs-who-made-millions-without-a-college-degree-2011-1
http://www.interesticle.com/entertainment/10-richest-people-who-did-not-finish-college/
http://www.fastcompany.com/3030631/hit-the-ground-running/10-famous-founders-who-didnt-graduate-from-college
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ashleyperez/23-famous-dropouts-who-turned-out-just-fine#.egWpdORdx
https://overmanwarrior.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/successful-people-that-didnt-go-to-college/
http://elitedaily.com/news/business/100-top-entrepreneurs-succeeded-college-degree/

There are lots more pages of examples of people did not need the college to reach the top. People from Lincoln to Warren Buffet bagged the higher education route and did their own thing. Feel free to dig further if you feel the need. Clearly an ivy league diploma is not essential to success or even making the big time. It never has been. It is all about the person going for the gold. If it is not the right person, the gold cannot be reached. It doesn't matter how much education they have. It doesn't matter if they go for the small gold like a neighborhood bar or big time gold like Harpo Productions (Oprah). It all depends on who is driving the effort. At best, the school they went to may offer some short cuts to the goal, but in cannot give people what it takes to make the grade.

It is certainly true in my industry.


I don't have time to critique each entry in each list but the "Overman Warrior" produced a list full of athletes and entertainers who, to nobody's surprise, did not earn academic credentials. Yogi Berra and Christina Aguilera are featured. He is also qualifiably wrong about Page and Brin, Google's founders. He includes those who fail to complete a doctoral engineering thesis as "dropouts". Nobody on earth thinks that earning two degrees in a related field at Stanford equates to dropping out of school. Except "Overman Warrior".

Warren Buffett did not "bag" higher education: he earned both a B.Sc. and an M.S. in economics by the time he was 21. So you're also qualifiably wrong.

You introduce a new straw man, too: "...an ivy league diploma is not essential to success or even making the big time..." Nobody said that or at least I certainly didn't. But academic credentials are the primary driver for career and financial success. Here it is in visual form in case you don't want to read the documentation I provided above:

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-014-x/2011003/c-g/c-g01_2-eng.gif

From your lists and your examples it's likely you're confusing entrepreneurship with professionalism. You may be interested in this article:

http://www.gallup.com/businessjournal/168527/talents-drive-entrepreneurial-success.aspx

Their argument is similar to yours but hones in on natural talent rather than "rigorous practice, self-motivation, and support". No matter how hard you trained or how well you regarded yourself you would never be able to achieve Yogi Berra's list of athletic achievements. But that hardly warrants the recommendation of avoiding a college education.

Even Yogi Berra would have a good chuckle at that one.

Nation of Quebec

Hello. I've never posted here before, but I'd just like everyone to know that I'm a libertarian voluntaryist / anarcho-capitalist. I've been growing into a classical liberal for over half a year now, and I've finally become an anarchist. Usually a forum dweller, I'll probably post infrequently on this message board and participate in regional politics/votes from now on. That is all.

~Good day.

The County of Orlogtun wrote:He is also qualifiably wrong about Page and Brin, Google's founders.

You're right. Guess you cannot believe everything you search on the net.

The County of Orlogtun wrote:Warren Buffett did not "bag" higher education: he earned both a B.Sc. and an M.S. in economics by the time he was 21. So you're also qualifiably wrong.

And you are qualifiably (Is that a word?) right. I was either told or read that he dropped out. A little research shows that is only part of the story. He changed schools to find a better education. Good catch on your part. I would rather be corrected then wrong on the facts.

The County of Orlogtun wrote:You introduce a new straw man, too: "...an ivy league diploma is not essential to success or even making the big time..." Nobody said that or at least I certainly didn't. But academic credentials are the primary driver for career and financial success. Here it is in visual form in case you don't want to read the documentation I provided above:

There is nothing straw man about it. While you may not have come out said those words, your posts imply that without the college degree you are pretty much screwed. You also imply that those that really made it big are statistical freaks.

What I am saying is that you either have it or you do not. Many of the people that have it go to college and even on to grad school. But that lack of college did not stand in the way of those that made it without it.

The County of Orlogtun wrote:http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-014-x/2011003/c-g/c-g01_2-eng.gif

It is no secret that those with a college degree make more money. This is primarily because some employers will not hire people for those high paying jobs unless they have a degree. (Many times it does not matter what your degree is in. If you statistics look up the number of people that are not working in the field they got their degree in.)

And none of that has anything to do with whether or not a degree is really necessary if you are building your own company or want to be successful in life.

The County of Orlogtun wrote:From your lists and your examples it's likely you're confusing entrepreneurship with professionalism.

One could read that to mean you do not believe it is possible to be "professional" and not have a college education. To be honest I do not see what that has to do with any of this.

The bottom line is quite literally the bottom line. If you are running a company that is stable and making a profit, your doing just fine. No body cares if your are an entrepreneur or a professional. I darn sure don't see any difference.

The County of Orlogtun wrote:Their argument is similar to yours but hones in on natural talent rather than "rigorous practice, self-motivation, and support". No matter how hard you trained or how well you regarded yourself you would never be able to achieve Yogi Berra's list of athletic achievements.


Exactly. Some people can do it with almost nothing in the way of support or education. Others cannot do it even with an MBA and several experienced board members holding their hand every step of the way.

I run into the same thing in my industry. I have people try out on the job with EE degrees and higher that are completely helpless in the field. Even with hands on training, they cannot solve the simplest problems. If you've lost the bull nose camera during a Presidential pool, that is no time to drag out the calculator to start pondering line lengths.

On the flip side some of the people working for me now do not have four year degrees. Some have some formal training in electronics or IT skills. One came out of a government job in the intelligence world. All of these people seem to have a natural ability to find and fix any problems while keeping the rest of the show on the air. That is worth more to me then all the degrees that MIT can issue in one year.

To be completely honest, I find the students coming out of the private technical colleges like ITT and Emory get a much better practical grasp on what is going on in the transmission chains then most people with full four year degrees. Perhaps it is time for no frills (a/k/a no wasting time on political indoctrination) technical college model to be expanded into other areas.

The County of Orlogtun wrote:But that hardly warrants the recommendation of avoiding a college education.

While I don't like what is going on in colleges now, I do not advocate avoiding them. However I would recommend shopping them very carefully before dropping the cash for the degree.

If the school you are looking at has "speech codes," "mandatory sensitivity training," "free speech zones," mandatory classes in subjects totally unrelated to your degree like "LGBT Issues in Modern Society" or any other signs of a Politically Correct Inquisition, my strongest recommendation would be to grab your money and run. Those schools are stealing time students should be getting practical real world education in order to further political agendas.

I do think that we are rapidly approaching that point in time where the value of a college education needs to be weighed against what you really want to do with your life. The guy that delivers beer to my local stores bars has a masters in sociology and can't get a job. My local FedEx lady has a teaching degree but found she gets better pay and benefits handing out packages all day. (She likes the dogs too so she gets bonus points.)

As mentioned above, a fairly high number of people are not working in the field their degree came in. A salesman for a broadcast equipment company once confided in me that his degree is in history. I know a political science major that is running a satellite uplink truck.

With the price of higher education and the student loan trap, the need to reevaluate exactly what a college degree will do for the individual becomes more and more critical.

Itorcya

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