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We did it.

Ms Bobby McGee and United swedistan

Ya! Nice work! :)

United swedistan

Since Women is controlled by one of our deciding members and was used as the nation storage while we waited to refound, it is exempt from the temporary need for consensus.

United swedistan

I wrote Shadoke a 1,878 word message (I didn't say anything about anyone here by name) about what happened on our end from the beginning of the occupation until the liberation and how much work it was trying to get the password, trying to find help, etc.. He actually apologized!

"You know, it is nice to see the natives have one! I put my pure raiding past behind me and now fly as an independent. I'm sorry for what we had planned to do to your region but just know it wasn't personal. It was a target picked off a tool list after my first target did not work out."

We talked as ourselves only once before this (when Madrigal was occupied by the Grey Wardens) and at the time he was defensive when I suggested he should show some remorse. Now he has apologized. Personally, I am satisfied. It's been difficult not to hold onto some anger and resentment in this game culture that says it's completely alright to take a random region and basically destroy it so the people there can't have it, but I think now I can put those events behind me. I hope you all feel the same.

(If you'd like to see the whole conversation, just telegram me).

Ms Bobby McGee and United swedistan

Post self-deleted by Rfi.

Hi, girls!
How things are going for Xmas?
Personally I ate maybe a little too much, but I don't care, because

“A culture fixated on female thinness is not an obsession about female beauty, but an obsession about female obedience. Dieting is the most potent political sedative in women’s history; a quietly mad population is a tractable one.” ― Naomi Wolf, from "The Beauty Myth"

Feminist Morndul wrote:I wrote Shadoke a 1,878 word message (I didn't say anything about anyone here by name) about what happened on our end from the beginning of the occupation until the liberation and how much work it was trying to get the password, trying to find help, etc.. He actually apologized!

Meh, personally I think a similar message can be dangerous because it can be used by anti-feminists for their sexist stereotypes about women being chatty.
Last time, in a similar situation, I used approximately 18 words within the RMB, and they retired, apologizing...
However I'm glad you managed to refound: a Feminist Region controlled by anti-feminists would have been really a shame.

United swedistan

My Christmas was great, thank you.

This wasn't an anti-feminist invasion. These were typical apolitical raiders. We were a fallback when their first target didn't work out. I of course agree that The Feminist Region needs to be controlled by feminists.

The message - and it's length - isn't something you could understand as well if you weren't here. Saving this region was a lot of work and it took an emotional toll. It's certainly enough to make one develop very strong opinions about raiding.

Incidentally, your propensity for quotes suggests you are the same user as Chessmistress. Am I correct?

Rfi and United swedistan

Nevermind, I see that you are. page=rmb/postid=13196668

United swedistan

Feminist Morndul wrote:My Christmas was great, thank you.
This wasn't an anti-feminist invasion. These were typical apolitical raiders. We were a fallback when their first target didn't work out. I of course agree that The Feminist Region needs to be controlled by feminists.

That sounds a little weird: apolitical raiders should made a little mess but then leaving within few days, not staying for 39 days (or, even worse, threatening to eject natives and refounding).

Feminist Morndul wrote:

The message - and it's length - isn't something you could understand as well if you weren't here. Saving this region was a lot of work and it took an emotional toll. It's certainly enough to make one develop very strong opinions about raiding.

I can understand it required a lot of work, and emotional toll. The first version of Women Empire called "Womenempire" was invaded too, we were without a founder because she has lost the password of the founder nation :( and due we were few and all new users I thought the best thing to do was abandoning the region, refounding another one (with a slightly better name) and mocking them saying we were going leaving them the chores within the old region :)
"Being oppressed means absence of choices"...who said so? I don't remember now (it happens, sometimes, after a long work day).
But I have to admit it was a different situation: being a Feminist I would had been way more hurted by losing a feminist region than by losing a roleplay region without direct references to feminism like "womenempire".
However I think that sometimes, invasions can happen for the right cause, in example Women and men against feminism - and sometimes "liberations" are not true liberations: there are regions like Feminism and Feminist Region that seems to be permanently locked...

Feminist Morndul wrote:

Incidentally, your propensity for quotes suggests you are the same user as Chessmistress. Am I correct?

There's a rather complete list of my puppets (though I have to update it) here

Terf - MY VERY FIRST NATION - Minister för tolerans och jämlikhet (for tolerance and equality) within Women Empire

Chessmistress - THE ALMIGHTY DIVINE EMPRESS

Sister sheila j - FOUNDER OF Women Empire

Dragenza - THE MOST WEIRD NATION - she conquered Women and Men against feminism

Mialla - Consent Revoker, within The Christian Union - revoking consent is better than giving it! :)

Sesta - THE ANARCHY

Solaas - ANARKOKVINNOSEPARATISM

Tenebraria - she's quite enraged, you know? :P

Radikala skold - no comments :)

And...
...also...
...who knows? :) ;)

Read factbook

Nice to meet you.

United swedistan

Rfi wrote:That sounds a little weird: apolitical raiders should made a little mess but then leaving within few days, not staying for 39 days (or, even worse, threatening to eject natives and refounding).

It's interesting that you only associate refounding with ideological raiders. I assure you, our attackers wanted to increase their personal status and glory in Raider Unity. Initially I just waited for them to leave because they hadn't made up their mind what to do with us. When their leader said "refounding is an option" I started coming up with whatever I could to save the region. It was only a little later that they decided on refounding for sure.

Rfi wrote:and sometimes "liberations" are not true liberations: there are regions like Feminism and Feminist Region that seems to be permanently locked...

The same thing (minus the lock) happened in the history of The Feminist Region. Our old founder Femdom Empire (who I never personally met) took the region by force and refounded it. This was a problem when she disappeared and the founder nation was gone. Defenders would not help us because they considered us a raider region. Being abandoned by the defender community taught me the importance of defending. I am a defender today because I want to prevent what happened to us from happening to others.

Rfi wrote:However I think that sometimes, invasions can happen for the right cause, in example Women and men against feminism

"The right cause"? Well, obviously I don't agree with a region called "Women and men against feminism." I wouldn't even say I considered it a stance equal with feminism. However, I might still have defended that region if given the opportunity. The Feminist Region sponsoring the defense of an anti-feminist region. It would send a powerful message, don't you think? I would rather make a show of moral superiority than expend resources on an occupation. Raiding just exacerbates disagreements.

How do you justify assisting in the occupation of Alternate History World?

United swedistan

Feminist Morndul wrote:It's interesting that you only associate refounding with ideological raiders. I assure you, our attackers wanted to increase their personal status and glory in Raider Unity. Initially I just waited for them to leave because they hadn't made up their mind what to do with us. When their leader said "refounding is an option" I started coming up with whatever I could to save the region. It was only a little later that they decided on refounding for sure.

It seems an unfair behavior to me. Unless there is a strong personal ideological opposition to the region theme (i.e. The Tripartite Pact) I don't think that refounding another region should be an option: regions belongs to the founder, when the founder disappear everybody can take it. By not refounding, invaders are basically preserving the region in the case the founder would live again. When Women Empire invaded Bilderberg Group and the founder lived again shortly after our takeover, he tought we were nice and our policy was so good that he gave us the new password.

Feminist Morndul wrote:

The same thing (minus the lock) happened in the history of The Feminist Region. Our old founder Femdom Empire (who I never personally met) took the region by force and refounded it. This was a problem when she disappeared and the founder nation was gone. Defenders would not help us because they considered us a raider region. Being abandoned by the defender community taught me the importance of defending. I am a defender today because I want to prevent what happened to us from happening to others.

With the new powers that can be granted to other users and accounts within the region, a similar thing it's very unlikely to happen again. Even if the founder is lost, through border control other people within the region can immediatly lock the region and then manage a refounding at the right time.
The old Feminist Region was a raiding region?

Feminist Morndul wrote:

"The right cause"? Well, obviously I don't agree with a region called "Women and men against feminism." I wouldn't even say I considered it a stance equal with feminism. However, I might still have defended that region if given the opportunity. The Feminist Region sponsoring the defense of an anti-feminist region. It would send a powerful message, don't you think? I would rather make a show of moral superiority than expend resources on an occupation. Raiding just exacerbates disagreements.
How do you justify assisting in the occupation of Alternate History World?

"Justify"? :)
Raiding is a part of NS metagame and behaviors within a game are totally unrelated with morality. In fact, sometimes (and perhaps even often) behaviors within a game can be the very opposite of the behavior of a person in real life: many people like to play something she isn't, not something she already is (otherwise, what's the point of playing and especially roleplaying?).
What kind of message would have sent The Feminist Region sponsoring the defense of an anti-feminist region? That we are friendly towards all people even with those who disagree with us? That would be a good message, but it wasn't the case, because it wasn't a "disagreement": the original WFE of Women and men against feminism said that Feminists wish to squash "nice guys" and not rapists, basically it said - in a rules-compliant way - that Feminists are purposely acting against the weaker boys and not against harassers. In some places that could be even considered hate speech, and I don't think Feminists should defend hate speech: it would be like defending fascist regions. I also don't think that Feminists should sit down when there's hate speech against women, perhaps waiting for men fixing the thing: that would be, really, really, an anti-feminist behavior.
Even more interesting, it wasn't a Feminist region that took Women and men against feminism, but an evil, tyrannical, matriarchal region, so that couldn't hurt Feminism at all. The only reason why Women and men against feminism wasn't refounded is that it would have been useless, since the founder wasn't executive, otherwise it would have received the same treatment of The Tripartite Pact.
Moral superiority can be showed through empathy, and there are many ways to show empathy towards others, but not all deserve empathy. But I think that coherency is very important, too, for showing moral superiority.
In example Women Empire has an embassy with United Transgender Womens Union and I accepted it immediatly. Why I shouldn't accept an embassy with a region representing oppressed peoples? Personally I don't need a poll to accept such embassy, but it's worth noting that their request haven't been accept here. It isn't funny that the TERF is far more quick to accept an embassy with a transgender region than a region that is supposed to be more inclusive, so much that one (or some?) of them would even defend an anti-feminist region with a WFE that was almost hate speech?
I always said I have nothing against transexuals, and I think they can be even better allies than males, so I'm just coherently applying my principles.
Maybe fixing such fallacies would help Feminism more than helping an anti-feminist region with a WFE that was almost hate speech, don't you think so?

A friend asked for my help for Alternate History World, exactly like in Christmas and The Reckoning, so, why not? As said, rading is just a part of NS metagame. Also, it's a democratical process: even if it's called "military" gameplay it's not that we are attacking people with bombs - in fact, we are electing a new delegate. More endorsements = more votes, an user = a vote, and that is exactly how democracy works.
Alternate History World is a roleplaying region that has lost its founder: the founder lost interest in the game or he/she had the nation deleted due rulebreaking (I don't think there are many cases like my secretary who lost her password while not having gave an email). Then for a roleplay it would have been far better simply founding another region with a similar name: it take some efforts to rewrite the WFE and rebuild embassies, but such thing would happen even if they would manage to refound.
Last but not least: when people invade regions, they aren't giving more "work" to defenders, in fact they're giving to defenders an opportunity to have fun, because defending is, exactly like invading, just only playing a game.

United swedistan

This nonsense is taking up quite a bit of RMB space. And yet, it was probably inevitable that'd we'd meet and clash eventually.

Rfi wrote:The old Feminist Region was a raiding region?

No, I mean the refound that Femdom Empire did was considered a raid.

Rfi wrote:"Justify"? :)
Raiding is a part of NS metagame and behaviors within a game are totally unrelated with morality.

Yes it's a game, but forcibly taking a region someone has built is not like shooting someone in the head in Call of Duty. At least you admit it's a metagame.

Rfi wrote:In fact, sometimes (and perhaps even often) behaviors within a game can be the very opposite of the behavior of a person in real life: many people like to play something she isn't, not something she already is (otherwise, what's the point of playing and especially roleplaying?).

You're correct that raiders have a wide range of behaviors outside of the game and, like yourself, many of them cannot distinguish between legalized griefing and things like roleplaying.

Rfi wrote:What kind of message would have sent The Feminist Region sponsoring the defense of an anti-feminist region? That we are friendly towards all people even with those who disagree with us? That would be a good message, but it wasn't the case, because it wasn't a "disagreement": the original WFE of Women and men against feminism said that Feminists wish to squash "nice guys" and not rapists, basically it said - in a rules-compliant way - that Feminists are purposely acting against the weaker boys and not against harassers. In some places that could be even considered hate speech, and I don't think Feminists should defend hate speech: it would be like defending fascist regions. I also don't think that Feminists should sit down when there's hate speech against women, perhaps waiting for men fixing the thing: that would be, really, really, an anti-feminist behavior.

It's gratuitously obnoxious but it's not hate speech: http://udl.taijitu.org/wfe_index/?women_and_men_against_feminism

Rfi wrote:Even more interesting, it wasn't a Feminist region that took Women and men against feminism, but an evil, tyrannical, matriarchal region, so that couldn't hurt Feminism at all.

I actually never claimed you "hurt Feminism," but since you mention it: people notice when you use a raiding puppet called "The Anti-Porn Feminist Paradise of Anorfer." It's lucky I was in the defender chat to explain you considered your group matriarchal and not feminist during the AHW occupation.

Rfi wrote:In example Women Empire has an embassy with United Transgender Womens Union and I accepted it immediatly. Why I shouldn't accept an embassy with a region representing oppressed peoples? Personally I don't need a poll to accept such embassy, but it's worth noting that their request haven't been accept here. It isn't funny that the TERF is far more quick to accept an embassy with a transgender region than a region that is supposed to be more inclusive, so much that one (or some?) of them would even defend an anti-feminist region with a WFE that was almost hate speech?
I always said I have nothing against transexuals, and I think they can be even better allies than males, so I'm just coherently applying my principles.

It hasn't been accepted because we haven't actually convened and figured out what each of our politics are. I would love to accept the embassy, but I need to knew the opinions of the others and establish an actual government. One I intend to be ruled by someone other than me, for reasons I will not disclose to you at this time. I did warn the leader of United Transgender Womens Union that you were a TERF. She didn't seem to understand me, but she did send the embassy request only after I sent the warning. I hardly see how someone who identifies as "moderately TERF" can claim to have no problem with transgender people.

Rfi wrote:Also, it's a democratical process: even if it's called "military" gameplay it's not that we are attacking people with bombs - in fact, we are electing a new delegate. More endorsements = more votes, an user = a vote, and that is exactly how democracy works.

Democracy is when foreign powers send people into a territory and shove their own representative into the ballots? No, I don't think so.

Rfi wrote:Last but not least: when people invade regions, they aren't giving more "work" to defenders, in fact they're giving to defenders an opportunity to have fun, because defending is, exactly like invading, just only playing a game.

That depends on the defender. For me it's a chore and a moral duty. I must chip in what I can to help.

Now listen, you and I are never going to completely get along. I've known this for a long time. Our views are too different. I've heard every line of raider rhetoric in the book. Nothing you say here is going to convince me. And right now, I don't want to discuss real world politics either. I'd rather save all that for the creation of the new TFR government.

And really I don't want to say I outright dislike you either. I admire conviction.

So what I'm telling you now is: this conversation is over. I don't have time for this. We can be enemies, we can be friendly rivals, I don't care. You're welcome to stay here for now, but I don't have your emotional stamina for prolonged arguments so if I can help it this is my last long response to you. I'm going to sleep.

United swedistan

Feminist Morndul wrote:This nonsense is taking up quite a bit of RMB space. And yet, it was probably inevitable that'd we'd meet and clash eventually.

"Clash"? Why?

Feminist Morndul wrote:

No, I mean the refound that Femdom Empire did was considered a raid.

So, The Feminist Region had been accused of having raided itself while refounding itself? That's rather confusing...

Feminist Morndul wrote:

Yes it's a game, but forcibly taking a region someone has built is not like shooting someone in the head in Call of Duty. At least you admit it's a metagame.
You're correct that raiders have a wide range of behaviors outside of the game and, like yourself, many of them cannot distinguish between legalized griefing and things like roleplaying.

You just missed the point that that someone who built the region has CTE.

Feminist Morndul wrote:

It's gratuitously obnoxious but it's not hate speech: http://udl.taijitu.org/wfe_index/?women_and_men_against_feminism

I wrote "almost hate speech", and indeed it said exactly that Feminists are bullying "nice guys" and that we don't care about real rapists. It's a little more than simply an "obnoxious" WFE...

Feminist Morndul wrote:

I actually never claimed you "hurt Feminism," but since you mention it: people notice when you use a raiding puppet called "The Anti-Porn Feminist Paradise of Anorfer." It's lucky I was in the defender chat to explain you considered your group matriarchal and not feminist during the AHW occupation.

I was talking about Women and men against feminism not about AHW. There was a Feminist among the raiders who attacked AHW, and then? Women's empowerment excludes attacking regions within NS? Maybe raiding should be an activity reserved to males or something?

Feminist Morndul wrote:

It hasn't been accepted because we haven't actually convened and figured out what each of our politics are. I would love to accept the embassy, but I need to knew the opinions of the others and establish an actual government. One I intend to be ruled by someone other than me, for reasons I will not disclose to you at this time. I did warn the leader of United Transgender Womens Union that you were a TERF. She didn't seem to understand me, but she did send the embassy request only after I sent the warning. I hardly see how someone who identifies as "moderately TERF" can claim to have no problem with transgender people.

It seems you need to convene and figure out what are your positions towards transgenders, while at the very same time you are totally rejecting even a "moderately TERF" attitude to the point you're even sending "warnings" to other regions about the "risks" of having an embassy with a roleplaying region ruled by someone who is moderately TERF.
Personally, I found this combination of thoughts very hilarious.
I hardly see how someone who do not identifies as TERF (without "moderately") can claim to need to carefully "convene and figure out" what are her policies towards transgenders, since even someone who is "moderately TERF" consider transgenders as good allies.
That's why I used the word "coherency"...
If United Transgender Womens Union will be attacked or under threat by someone, we'll defend them, just like we did in Lesbia - allies deserve our help.

Feminist Morndul wrote:

Now listen, you and I are never going to completely get along. I've known this for a long time. Our views are too different. I've heard every line of raider rhetoric in the book. Nothing you say here is going to convince me. And right now, I don't want to discuss real world politics either. I'd rather save all that for the creation of the new TFR government.
And really I don't want to say I outright dislike you either. I admire conviction.
So what I'm telling you now is: this conversation is over. I don't have time for this. We can be enemies, we can be friendly rivals, I don't care. You're welcome to stay here for now, but I don't have your emotional stamina for prolonged arguments so if I can help it this is my last long response to you. I'm going to sleep.

"We can be enemies"???
I never thought about being "enemy" of another Feminist. That sounds ludicrous.
However, no problems, this conversation is over even for me. Have a good sleeping.

United swedistan

Post self-deleted by Feminist Morndul.

Welcome back, Avianeera.

S and m and United swedistan

Thank you, Feminist Morndul! Sorry it took a while.

Rfi and United swedistan

Avianeera wrote:Thank you, Feminist Morndul! Sorry it took a while.

Welcome even from me, sister :)

United swedistan

Thank you, Rfi! So, you're Swedish? I am. :)

Rfi and United swedistan

Avianeera wrote:Thank you, Rfi! So, you're Swedish? I am. :)

Nice to meet you.
More or less I'm: I have double citizenship and I lived in Sweden for few years, my former boyfriend was Swede, but currently I don't live in Sweden. Last times I have been in Sverige it was on May-June 2015 and September 2014 (I even voted: "F!", obiousvly :) ). My other citizenship, my native country I mean, is just a little secret...

United swedistan

Nice to meet you too! I don't live there either at the moment, but I grew up there etc. I voted F! too :)

Rfi wrote:Nice to meet you.
More or less I'm: I have double citizenship and I lived in Sweden for few years, my former boyfriend was Swede, but currently I don't live in Sweden. Last times I have been in Sverige it was on May-June 2015 and September 2014 (I even voted: "F!", obiousvly :) ). My other citizenship, my native country I mean, is just a little secret...

Rfi and United swedistan

Oh hey, Isle of kesha is back. Welcome.

Cleopatra selene and United swedistan

Isle of kesha

Feminist Morndul wrote:Oh hey, Isle of kesha is back. Welcome.

Nice to be back, y'all. What's up? :)

Cleopatra selene, Rfi, and United swedistan

Cleopatra selene

Isle of kesha wrote:Nice to be back, y'all. What's up? :)

Not much at the moment. Now that you are here, along with Bobby and Avianeera, we will be able to discuss the future direction of this region.

United swedistan

Just as long as everyone is active enough to hold a conversation. Avianeera seems to be logging in every few days, which is fine. Bobby has been gone for 37 as of this posting, so when she gets back we'll all be able to begin our private discussion. I realize Ms Bobby McGee and Avianeera are the only two listed in the WFE, so I want to clarify that that's because Cleo is always active (so her availability wasn't/isn't a concern) and I didn't know if Kesha would be back. That is to say, you two are invited also (if it was unclear).

United swedistan

Hey guys, anyone online?

United swedistan

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